Crystal Springs, Burlingame

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Good call regarding Indian Valley. Some fun golf up there. If you start bringing conditioning and pace of play into the equation I'm not even going to be able to list a course.
   That is the downside of being a golf snob, I feel like a 4 1/2 hour round is an absolute eternity.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - your value list covers a hell of a lot of ground also... but no hassles.  I'd say it's a darn good list, although Lake Chabot is now sadly closed... and Santa Clara, well... perhaps it's just too familiar to me, and at $50+ weekends, well... I can't get behind that either.  Also putting Chardonnay #1 based on specials is kinda cheating - yeah you CAN get those but lots of times you can't also, and then it's a lot closer to three figures.

As much as I do like Shoreline also, I don't consider it a value... prices there are rather steep these days.

The fact is we really don't HAVE many value courses in the greater Bay Area.  Those that do exist are typically pretty far out, like Delta View.

Assuming we are to go far out, some others to consider are:

Spring Hills (Watsonville)
Spring Valley (Milpitas)
Peacock Gap (San Rafael)
Indian Valley (Novato)

And likely a few others not mentioned yet, depending on how far you want to push out.

BTW, I too can't get behind Sunol either as a value or as a good course in any way.  There is SOME good there, but most of it is pretty boring up and back slog, and I say that about both courses.  Conditions are also generally spotty and price isn't great and it tends to take forever to play.  Other than that they are both just dandy.

TH

Yeah your right Tom, even I failed to follow my own guidelines  

I checked santa clara online and it said it was 34 on weekends, but maybe its an old link.  And shoreline was only 40 when I played it three years ago...oh well.

So whats the story on Lake Chabot?  It was kinda goofy with the road bisecting some holes, but it was a fun course, especially number 9 with that massive drop..and the last par 6 18th hole which always ate my lunch.  A unique course that was tough to walk.

[David Stamm]

Tom,
   Good call regarding Indian Valley. Some fun golf up there. If you start bringing conditioning and pace of play into the equation I'm not even going to be able to list a course.
   That is the downside of being a golf snob, I feel like a 4 1/2 hour round is an absolute eternity.

Ed, unfortunately, 4 1/2 hours is considered good time down here.

[ed_getka]

David,
    I think it is worth seeing if you go nearby, however you don't go to Northwood to see Mackenzie per se. It is VERY cool to golf in a cathedral of redwoods. You can see a few vestiges of Mackenzie there if you look around. We played it on our way up to Bandon for the opening of the Trails course. A nice stop to stretch the legs, not too far off the route we took up north.

[ed_getka]

Ed, unfortunately, 4 1/2 hours is considered good time down here.

David,
   That is why I mostly practice at Poppy Ridge and bide my time for my next trip. Unless of course a GCA'er comes to town, then I don't mind a slow round as it just gives more time to visit and talk golf.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kyle:  

Pretty darn good list, just this:  only Getka and his copter/car could typically get to Cinnabar Hills from Oakland in one hour.  I ought to know; I commuted from San Jose to Oakland and back for 10 years.  Other than that, pretty darn good list.  Just note Lake Chabot is now closed.. and re the others,well... Stone Tree is quite controversial here - some liked it, most hated it - I thought it was overpriced but outside of that fun enough.  And you're right on re trying to list value courses... to many variables.

Ed - well, when trying to distinguish between courses, I think conditions and pace of play do matter... but man if you do find 4.5 hours glacial, no wonder you don't play around here much.  4.5 is miraculously FAST at Santa Teresa.  I just have to ask:  do you generally get around Rustic that fast?  There have been lots of complaints about glacial rounds there in recent years... I know Moriarty et al for sure play in way less than that, but they have standing first group off tee time so they should, no?  When you go do you just play in that group?

David:

Northwood has been discussed numerous times in here.  My take - which isn't far from the consensus - is that it's interesting enough and of course a MacKenzie-phile needs to see it... but outside of that, it is far from worth the journey from SF.  It's really not that big of a deal.  Play it if you want to take time from wine-tasting while in the area, but outside of that, save your time.

TH

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   You think I would go to Rustic and not avail myself of the standing first tee time of the day on Sunday? I know I sound stupid sometimes, but I didn't think it was that bad. Plus, Messrs. Moriarty and Kelly are happy to take my money as I fill in Getka Gulch (that is the wash to the right of #18 fairway). Of course, those damn floods keep washing away all my hard work to widen that fairway.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Last time I played Santa Clara on a weekend it was $44 - but Benham and Pieracci played it on 1/1 so perhaps they can report.  To me $44 removes that from a value... but like I say, it's probably because that's the course I spend the most time at, being close to my work.  To me it's so old hat I just can't get excited about it.  My home club course Santa Teresa is far superior, I think.  But to each his own... there is a lot of good at Santa Clara.

Lake Chabot was a VERY fun course - I loved it -and you have it right.  It just recently closed for financial reasons they say... it may re-open... but we'll see.

And David, we're no different from SoCal - 4.5 hours is fast here too, on weekends anyway, sadly so.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
   You think I would go to Rustic and not avail myself of the standing first tee time of the day on Sunday? I know I sound stupid sometimes, but I didn't think it was that bad.

I figured you would want to do it; just wasn't sure if David et al always had room for you.  That's very cool.

Outside of that pace of play is slow there also, no?  We suffered at the KP we had there, which was the last time I played it....

TH

[David Stamm]

Tom,
   You think I would go to Rustic and not avail myself of the standing first tee time of the day on Sunday? I know I sound stupid sometimes, but I didn't think it was that bad. Plus, Messrs. Moriarty and Kelly are happy to take my money as I fill in Getka Gulch. That is the wash to the right of #18 fairway. Of course, those damn floods keep washing away all my hard work to widen that fairway.

Ed, I was filled in why everyone was referring to that area as Getka Gulch. I knew right away it was in reference to you, but obviously didn't know why. I was enlightened.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   You think I would go to Rustic and not avail myself of the standing first tee time of the day on Sunday? I know I sound stupid sometimes, but I didn't think it was that bad. Plus, Messrs. Moriarty and Kelly are happy to take my money as I fill in Getka Gulch (that is the wash to the right of #18 fairway). Of course, those damn floods keep washing away all my hard work to widen that fairway.

The David's have a rotating group of guys with Ryan Simper, Lynn S, and a few others. They are always nice enough to make room for me. When we come around for our second round of the day then the reality sets in as far as slow goes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Gotcha re that, Ed.  Very cool.  But do you ever play on weekends close to home?

I'm guessing I know the answer, I just want to make sure.

Our realities are as different as two golfers can get, which always intrigues me.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Last time I played Santa Clara on a weekend it was $44 - but Benham and Pieracci played it on 1/1 so perhaps they can report.  To me $44 removes that from a value... but like I say, it's probably because that's the course I spend the most time at, being close to my work.  To me it's so old hat I just can't get excited about it.  My home club course Santa Teresa is far superior, I think.  But to each his own... there is a lot of good at Santa Clara.

Lake Chabot was a VERY fun course - I loved it -and you have it right.  It just recently closed for financial reasons they say... it may re-open... but we'll see.

And David, we're no different from SoCal - 4.5 hours is fast here too, on weekends anyway, sadly so.

TH

Thats a shame about Lake Chabot, hope they won't let it go too long.  I think they should bring someone in, perhaps renovate it, maybe even a re-design, with a peice of land like that, its got a ton of potential and a great view to boot!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - agreed re LC - but remember it's the city of Oakland we're talking about - not exactly a hotbed of developmental progress.  Hopefully it does get worked out, because you are darn right about that land.  I just fear it's going to be way more valuable as something other than a golf course.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - agreed re LC - but remember it's the city of Oakland we're talking about - not exactly a hotbed of developmental progress.  Hopefully it does get worked out, because you are darn right about that land.  I just fear it's going to be way more valuable as something other than a golf course.

Yeah its true, Oakland is certainly a shining example of how to run a city..  

With all the money in the bay area, it can't sit there long, and I'm afraid your right the tempation to sell will likely be too much.

Damn it, we need the Donald to step in and build us the 2nd best course in california behind the national...  

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,
   Good call regarding Indian Valley. Some fun golf up there. If you start bringing conditioning and pace of play into the equation

Ed, that is a good call.  Indian Valley was my original home course when it opened in 1956 (I was 14 and just started to play golf).  It was a great place to learn to play, as there were many awkward lies, uphill, downhill, side hill, not a great course but a lot of fun.  The 10th could be one of the worst anywhere but it's still fun.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
    The only thing that would possess me to go to a golf course on the weekend is for a GCA'er to come into town. Even then I present weekdays as the option, and pray they don't want to golf on the weekend. Also, one of the few downsides to my nurse gig is that I have to work 2 weekends a month, which is why I wasn't at Rustic last weekend. The major upside to my job is I only work 3 days a week so I always have weekdays available for golf. If I had a M-F 9 to 5 gig I would be stuck with the rest of the free world vying for weekend times.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle:  

Pretty darn good list, just this:  only Getka and his copter/car could typically get to Cinnabar Hills from Oakland in one hour.  I ought to know; I commuted from San Jose to Oakland and back for 10 years.  Other than that, pretty darn good list.  Just note Lake Chabot is now closed.. and re the others,well... Stone Tree is quite controversial here - some liked it, most hated it - I thought it was overpriced but outside of that fun enough.  And you're right on re trying to list value courses... to many variables.


TH

Tom,
ICinnabar may be at the fringes of the boundary I set forth but I still consider it a Bay Area course. San Juan Oaks and Stevinson Ranch are fantastic courses but I can't imagine anyone really considers them to be Bay Area courses by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, I played Lake Chabot weeks before it closed, at which time I was told that it would repopen in the spring after some reworking of the cart routes and argonomic renovations. I believe April was the target... Fingers are crossed.

BTW: Have you tried Mountain House yet? Many hate it. I love it. You should try it. Twilight rates ($20 with cart) all day long if the wind tops 20 mph. Be ready to brave a few blind shots and a couple of steep greens. Plays pretty fast and firm. :0

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - understood - it just continues to amaze and intrigue me how different our realities are.  

Kyle - no hassles how you define the "Bay Area" and heck yeah Cinnabar is a "Bay Area" course - my inlaws live about 2 miles from it, me about 6-7 and I go there often - I just had to give some guff about getting there from Oakland in an hour, given that was damn near my exact commute for a decade.  Oh yes it can be done with zero traffic and a lot of luck... it's just stretching the boundary as you defined it, let's say.

And that's good news about Lake Chabot.  Fingers crossed most definitely.  I love that place.

I have wanted to play Mountain House for a long time - Gib P. loved it also and we've discussed it in here several times.  I just don't get many completely free days, and given where that is that's what a round there is going to require.  Hopefully I'll get out there soon enough... it does look very cool to me.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

Mountain House looks interesting; any photos to post up? It looks to be designed by Bob Milano, who I've not heard of, unless it's the old baseball coach at Cal......in which case no one with a proper jesuit education should be lauding the work......

[Tom Huckaby]

Mountain House looks interesting; any photos to post up? It looks to be designed by Bob Milano, who I've not heard of, unless it's the old baseball coach at Cal......in which case no one with a proper jesuit education should be lauding the work......

 
The only pics I've seen are on the Mountain House web site.

[Mike Benham]

BTW: Have you tried Mountain House yet? Many hate it. I love it. You should try it. Twilight rates ($20 with cart) all day long if the wind tops 20 mph. Be ready to brave a few blind shots and a couple of steep greens. Plays pretty fast and firm. :0

Lot's of interesting banter on this thread which will lead to another thread, similar topic where everyone can voice their opinions on Bay Area golf.

Be careful of planning on a doing twilight rate at Mountain House on a weekday.  The eastbound traffic through the Tri-Valley area is murder and starting in the early afternoon, well, if you have to sit in a car and drive 40 miles in 1 1/2 hours, there isn't a low enough "twilight rate" that would justify that trip.