[George Pazin]

In Patrick's recent redan thread, several (notably Tom D and Patrick) note that the safe miss is long left.

A couple people also posited on my initial Week 1: Hole 1 at Oakmont thread that the safe play is long, putting back for a safer par.

The beautiful thing about these "options" is that it means one generally foregoes a good look at birdie. I think most are simply not disciplined enough to pass up any opportunity for birdie, particularly when they have a wedge or short iron in their hands (#1 Oakmont) or can tee up the ball (NGLA #4, or any par 3).

It's interesting to me that both of these plays feature greens that slope away from the golfer. Are there any other features/characteristics that frequently result in such a strategy?

[Brian Noser]

I dont know about the features But to answer your question...No  

[Garland Bayley]

Did I somehow miss Oakmont, Week #5?

[Dan Kelly]

Are there any other features/characteristics that frequently result in such a strategy?

Greenside water hazards -- like, say, at Augusta No. 12.

[George Pazin]

Did I somehow miss Oakmont, Week #5?

I'm short-staffed during the holiday week. The series will resume Tuesday, 1/2/2007.

[JESII]

George,

How about a green that slopes significantly to the right or left? The "par" play is to the low side of the hole even thought the ball will go further from the hole, while the "birdie" play is to the high side in hopes of the ball filtering down the slope to the hole. Of course the downside is leaving the ball above the hole which may result in a bogey.

[Bill_McBride]

Are we talking about the same Oakmont #1?  A short iron or wedge?  I've played that hole half a dozen times and never hit anything less than a 5-iron.  It's a 461 yard par 4.  Downhill yes, but 461 nonetheless.

George, have you been taking those Charles Atlas classes again?  

[Garland Bayley]

In a practice round, I seldom pass up the temptation of a birdie. In a competition round, I play more conservatively.

[Kalen Braley]

Many redan versions I have played are usually fairly long, (holding a 5 iron or greater in my hands).  As a double digit handicapper I'm usually just trying to figure out a way to get a par and avoid a 5 or worse.

So being imaginative on any hole where you are just scratching to get par is a good thing in my mind!

I save those birdie dreams for the short 3,4, and 5's....

[Lou_Duran]

My experience is that most amateurs will risk par to make birdie.  Few architectural features and maintenance practices seem to affect this.  Besides, don't most here profess not to be of the paper and pencil type?

BTW, I generally play to the conservative side, which, with declining skills, means a lot fewer birdies, and not many pars either.  Within reason, aggresive play has more of just rewards, which brings to mind an old Sam Snead story.

It seems that his amateur partner had an important 15' uphill birdie putt which the guy proceeded to run by the hole a similar distance.   In his unique, quaint way, Snead was loosely quoted as having said, "You know, the Lord doesn't love a coward, but he doesn't much care for a fool either".

One of the best amateurs I ever played with, Ross Bartchy Jr., once told me that he always approached each hole thinking of how to best make a birdie without jeopardizing par.  I recall that he made lots of pars, a few birdies and bogies, and seldom anything else.  No doubt that the architecture of the hole had a lot to do with his strategy, but course and weather conditions, the type of competition, and where he stood relative to the field probably dictated his play more.    

[Lloyd_Cole]

A couple of our local courses have such severely contoured greens that if you're above the hole and get greedy you're in danger of 4 putting, or more.
So yes, on these holes, I'd rather be chipping up the hill than putting from 6' above the hole.

[Adam Clayman]

One shot a time mentality should preclude the thought of the result (birdies) dancing in one's head.  

Back when Bogie was the desire, there were no irrigation systems. With the watering capabilites came the acceptance of par. Soft surfaces have led to an aggressive approach. Resulting in a pampering of the masses who believe if their lob wedges don't stop within a few inches of where they returned to earth, the place is either poorly designed or tricked out. This is of course preposterous and identifies those who think "their: game is the only one in town.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Another great hole which is best to miss long is the 14th on The Old Course, so you don't have to deal with the difficult slope at the front of the green.

One of the things I love about those holes is that if the average player would just take an extra club and try to go to the back, a lot of times, their usual slight miss could wind up in birdie range.  This is especially true of the Redan.  However, if the player takes an extra club and then starts THINKING about taking a little off it, he may wind up well short, exactly where he did not want to be.

[Scott Szabo]

How bout #14 at Augusta?  This is another great hole where long is better, for the same reason Tom mentioned at the Old Course.  Ever seen players try and put over that mound in the right front?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In Patrick's recent redan thread, several (notably Tom D and Patrick) note that the safe miss is long left.

A couple people also posited on my initial Week 1: Hole 1 at Oakmont thread that the safe play is long, putting back for a safer par.

The beautiful thing about these "options" is that it means one generally foregoes a good look at birdie. I think most are simply not disciplined enough to pass up any opportunity for birdie, particularly when they have a wedge or short iron in their hands (#1 Oakmont) or can tee up the ball (NGLA #4, or any par 3).

It's interesting to me that both of these plays feature greens that slope away from the golfer. Are there any other features/characteristics that frequently result in such a strategy?

George,

I think your conclusion is flawed, and if anything, deeply flawed.

Playing short and allowing for the luck of random bounces and rolls tends to remove a birdie from the equation.

Just because long-left provides the easiest recovery options, doesn't mean that one foregoes birdie.

If you understand the nature of the tilted tabletop green, putting from BELOW the hole is the optimum spot to putt for birdie.

In order to putt from below the hole, one usually has to be a little long.

So, the default option is to take enough club to place you behind/below the pin for the ideal putt for birdie, and, if your execution is a little off, and you go a little long, the consequences are minor compared to the other locations one's ball can find with a mis-executed approach.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How bout #14 at Augusta?  This is another great hole where long is better, for the same reason Tom mentioned at the Old Course.  Ever seen players try and put over that mound in the right front?

Scott,

Long on # 14 at ANGC is NOT better, it's worse.

The recovery shot can be murderously fast to a green that slopes away from you.

If the pin was top left, long might be acceptable, but, if the pin is anywhere other than top left, LONG CAN BE LETHAL

[Phil McDade]

In the right conditions, Tiger has played the 12th at TOC -- a great short par 4 -- with a driver in which he bombs it entirely over everything, hoping to be long and chip/putt for his birdie. I'm absolutely certain Tiger has studied how to play TOC in reverse, and knows which greens it's easier to come in from the backside.

Hogan's famous comment about being near the flag at Augusta's 11th also seems to be in this vein. And it certainly seems that lots of birdies are made by going long at Augusta's 15th, which may take eagle out of the equation but also eliminates big numbers (unless you're really long and end up in the other pond!).

[George Pazin]

In Patrick's recent redan thread, several (notably Tom D and Patrick) note that the safe miss is long left.

A couple people also posited on my initial Week 1: Hole 1 at Oakmont thread that the safe play is long, putting back for a safer par.

The beautiful thing about these "options" is that it means one generally foregoes a good look at birdie. I think most are simply not disciplined enough to pass up any opportunity for birdie, particularly when they have a wedge or short iron in their hands (#1 Oakmont) or can tee up the ball (NGLA #4, or any par 3).

It's interesting to me that both of these plays feature greens that slope away from the golfer. Are there any other features/characteristics that frequently result in such a strategy?

George,

I think your conclusion is flawed, and if anything, deeply flawed.

Playing short and allowing for the luck of random bounces and rolls tends to remove a birdie from the equation.

Just because long-left provides the easiest recovery options, doesn't mean that one foregoes birdie.

If you understand the nature of the tilted tabletop green, putting from BELOW the hole is the optimum spot to putt for birdie.

In order to putt from below the hole, one usually has to be a little long.

So, the default option is to take enough club to place you behind/below the pin for the ideal putt for birdie, and, if your execution is a little off, and you go a little long, the consequences are minor compared to the other locations one's ball can find with a mis-executed approach.

I think we're on the same page, but I didn't explain mine well.

I think the temptation is to try to be too exacting on the approach; "if I play a little short, maybe it'll trickle to the hole, or just slightly past."

I thought you and Tom were advocating just flat out playing long, not even flirting with the hole. This would indeed leave an uphill putt, but probably a lengthy one. If you tried to play it exact and executed properly, you might - stress might - be rewarded with a short putt, but it might also be a rather difficult one.

Hope that explains things better.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone, even Dan who correctly pointed out that water - which I generally dislike - can playing an effective role as a temptor.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil McDade,

That's an awfully scarey chip shot from behind the 15th green.

George Zahringer stated that going long on your second shot to # 7 a NGLA was a sound tactic as it took the "road hole" bunker out of play and provided a more benign recovery shot for birdie or chip-in eagle.

If one has the length, taking a little extra club and being able to carry to the green, seems to be a sound tactic, since balls long and a little left are left with NO architectural defenses to obstruct recovery and birdies.

The same can be said of # 13 at GCGC, a reachable par 5, with a green that tilts from front to back.

# 10 has a similar configuration, except that a narrow, deep, horseshoe like bunker is close to the back of the green, hence, precision on the approach is critical.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott,

Long on # 14 at ANGC is NOT better, it's worse.

The recovery shot can be murderously fast to a green that slopes away from you.

If the pin was top left, long might be acceptable, but, if the pin is anywhere other than top left, LONG CAN BE LETHAL

Patrick,

I've never been there, but from what I recall on TV (take it for what it's worth), when the pin is on the right just over that mound, all the balls typically are played either long of the pin or just into the fringe, in hopes of avoiding the lower portion of the green.  I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that being past the pin on that hole was the prudent play.

I will be getting my first tour this year during the Masters as I was fortunate enough to get tickets.  Looking forward to it.

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Most golfers prefer to aim left of a right side pin and let the ball kick and feed to the right.

Going long isn't that attractive.

You're going to be surprised by the elevation changes, they're staggering and TV doesn't let you pick up the contouring of the fairways and greens.

Get there as early as you can and wear comfortable shoes.

If you can, walk the golf course in its rotation, or take the following shortcuts.

# 1 green is near # 8 green
# 2 green is near # 7 green and not far from # 17 green
# 5 and # 6 are neat greens and # 6 green is right next to
# 16 green.
# 9 green and # 18 green are next to each other.
But, make sure you walk down to the DZ's so that you get a sense of the shots into those greens.

Walk the back nine if time is limited.

# 10 green isn't far from # 14 green
# 11 green and # 12 green are close,
# 13 and # 15 aren't that far away

Again, try to get to the DZ's on all of the holes and the tees on all of the par 3's.

I hope the weather is great for you.

Seeing it in person is quite a surprise from seeing it on TV.

You won't be disappointed.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

Yes, on both 14 and 15 at Augusta, the players tend to miss long because they know being short is an instant bogey or double bogey.  But you do NOT want to be over the back of those greens, either.  The pros are happy to play past the pin on those holes and try to spin it back ... at 14 that is the best way to get close ... but they have enough distance control to protect against being short OR over the back.

[Scott Szabo]

Patrick,

Thanks for all the information.  I, too, hope the weather cooperates as this may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and I would hate to have it affected for any reason.

We plan on arriving as the gates open and staying until they kick us out!

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that the front of the 5th and 14th greens were RTJ's and AM's tribute to the Valley of Sin ?

[Scott Szabo]

Scott:

Yes, on both 14 and 15 at Augusta, the players tend to miss long because they know being short is an instant bogey or double bogey.  But you do NOT want to be over the back of those greens, either.  The pros are happy to play past the pin on those holes and try to spin it back ... at 14 that is the best way to get close ... but they have enough distance control to protect against being short OR over the back.

Distance control - one advantage among many that they have over us amateurs.  Although, I can't imagine they have as much fun on the golf course as the rest of us!

I used to be a scratch golfer before a career got in the way, then along came the kids, the usual story.  Wouldn't trade it for the world, mind you.  

I just find golf so much more enjoyable now than I did when I took it so seriously.  It is first and foremost a game, and at times it's easy to lose sight of that fact.

Scott

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