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wsmorrison

Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2006, 03:27:03 PM »
Jeff,

That bunker is a bit of an odd vestige of the old design.  I guess it is used to frame the playing area though I forget if you can see the bunker from the tee.  I don't think so but I may be wrong.  If you can't see if from the tee, I would also wonder why it was retained.   New England frugality?   Even still, I know a lot of people aren't into framing of any kind though I think Flynn did it on occasion with some that are superb such as at Indian Creek and Shinnecock Hills.

wsmorrison

Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2006, 03:30:37 PM »
Doug,

Tell me about it.  As much as I find fault with Moriarty's wild ride of changing hypothesis and contradictions, I just don't wish to engage him in any reasonable discussion because the reason would be one-sided.  I feel bad that Sully and others are left to handle the contra side of his ramblings.  They're doing a good job, but frankly, why bother arguing with a fool?  Let him have his thrill and come up with an article, book, encyclopedia or whatever.  It will be easily dismissed as rot soon enough and once and for all rather than through this slow and steady descent into the absurd.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 03:32:30 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Scott Witter

Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2006, 04:08:01 PM »
Fellas:

Thanks for the lesson in design evaluation...gosh I'm blushing  :-*

"Flynn tee is on a higher level that allows some of the strategic designs to come into play while the other tee was quite awkward with the 20 foot climb in front of the tee."

Strategic yes, but likely still blind so any more natural--not IMO.

"Flynn's bunkers are more sophisticated in the outlines in harmony with the movement of the topography rather than narrow unnatural geometric forms. The centerline bunker in front of the green was a primitive design with a narrow rectangular pit with a berm constructed behind it using the fill from the pit.  The other three bunkers are not placed in a natural fashion but at three corners of the green.  Flynn retained a single bunker from the right rear corner of the original green and used that to mark the outside of the turn towards the new green."

Sure, I agree about the different bunker shapes and I like the Flynn bunker shapes much better and I noted the strategic approach taken...I guess I am 'looking' at natural from a another point of view as opposed to the simple change in shape of the bunkers.  The bunkers in the original design are no more unnatural than the sharp circular revetted pot bunkers in Scotland, but everyone agrees for the most part that they are placed in natural locations with respect to grade and strategy intended.

As far as the shape of the green goes...really doesn't matter if he or anyone for that matter uses a square, round or organic shaped putting surface as long as it is in a "natural" location with respect to surrounding grade and the intended shot asked of the player...and so on.  Elevation wise, it looks as though the original green location offered a better view for more players (if natural or not I don't care) to the green site based on positioning in the landing area and the rise at contour 220.  The Flynn design if anything did create more strategy, that's a plus, but also more possibility for a blind second shot unless you play FAR right or FAR left along the edges or bust it past the 220 plus rise in the fairway.

"Flynn's left fairway bunker is placed naturally into the hillside with a small mound behind to raise the topline a bit more"

While true, I really wouldn't use this as a means of comparison since the original design didn't have a fairway bunker.  Curious, what is the length of this hole?  It seems shortish?

"Flynn's design uses an outstanding feature that was on the periphery of the old ole, namely the mound that hides the green for all but well-placed shots to the left of the fairway."  What mound are you referring to?  Do you mean the rise in the landing area at contour 220?  This is why I asked about the hole length.

There is no question IMO that the Flynn design is better for many reasons, but natural isn't what stands out to me, (I am not being critical of you Wayne, just my observations) the strategic and tactical approach he took with feature placement in association with the movement in the landscape to accentuate his design thinking and the players challenge are what is best about the hole.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2006, 01:21:42 AM »

I think 18 elevated tees would definitely mean a lot of earthmoving to achieve that result, and therefore an unnatural golf course.  

Is that how you'd classify or describe Sand Hills ?



Pat Mucci must have a reason to ask that question as the superficial answer is quite apparent!  

I do



What is Pat's hidden agenda?

It's not that hidden



Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2006, 06:49:34 PM »

I think 18 elevated tees would definitely mean a lot of earthmoving to achieve that result, and therefore an unnatural golf course.  

Is that how you'd classify or describe Sand Hills ?



Pat Mucci must have a reason to ask that question as the superficial answer is quite apparent!  

I do



What is Pat's hidden agenda?

It's not that hidden



I haven't had the fortune to play Sand Hills, so don't know what you are talking about.

When I think of 18 elevated tees, I'm thinking of Nicklaus' private course at PGA West, for example, where every tee seems to built up well above the fairway and it doesn't look natural.

I don't know about Sand Hills, but I have played Friars Head, Cuscowilla, Talking Stick North & South, and Bandon Trails, all by C&C, and never had the feeling that all 18 tees were elevated.  Are you saying that all 18 at Sand Hills are elevated artificially?  That's not the case at the list above.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Is the existance of 18 elevated tees a weakness
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2006, 12:02:08 PM »
I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I think I remember being told that the tees at Sand Hills were all built entirely by cut -- that they just sawed the top off a small dune to build each tee, to avoid spilling fill off the banks which would then have to be regrassed.  A good solution to the latter problem, but it is repetitive.

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