The 3rd at National Golf Links of America is...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter Galea,

The "bell" at NGLA was donated by my good friend Joe McBride, who unfortunately passed away a year ago.
Joe was in his mid-80's and lived a good life.

Joe was a great guy, a great golfer and a lover of the game.

Joe kept on telling me to marry my girlfriend.
Joe kept on telling my girlfriend to get me to commit to a date, or lose her number.
While we were married, I should have listened to Joe and married her sooner.

Every time I ring that bell I will think of him.

Thomas Brown,

Yes, you're mistaken.
# 3 at NGLA is superior to # 17 at Prestwick, although both are terrific holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:  sounds like Joe was a hell of a guy.  But I also have to say I smiled at that, hearing you not listen to yet another person.  

Thomas - Alps at Prestwick surely preceded Alps at NGLA and likely was the inspiration, but I don't recall from Scotland's Gift... I think CBMac did see some others.  In any case it surely had to be the most famous.  As to which is the superior golf hole, well... hell they're both great.  I just do prefer NGLA's due to the angle, etc. as has been explained.  But then again I also like NGLA's redan better than North Berwick's, so obviously being the original means little to me.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Take this a bit further:

Isn't #3 and 4 basically the best two back-to-back holes in the world?  

I think 15 and 16 Cypress compare... if not 16 and 17.

But these two are right up there.

Separate question - one I think we can take to the bank... 1-4 NGLA:  best opening 4 in the world.  Are there any contenders?

TH

[ed_getka]

Take this a bit further:

Isn't #3 and 4 basically the best two back-to-back holes in the world?  

I think 15 and 16 Cypress compare... if not 16 and 17.

But these two are right up there.

Separate question - one I think we can take to the bank... 1-4 NGLA:  best opening 4 in the world.  Are there any contenders?

TH

Hard to argue either of those. I'm sure someone will though.

[Thomas_Brown]

8 & 9 at Maidstone are in the same league in my book.
I prefer the first 4 at RCD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Do you find 3-4 NGLA clearly better than 15-16 or 16-17 CPC?

I find it very arguable.  Oh, in the end perhaps NGLA does get the nod... but it is very very close.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Thomas:

That's a hell of a good call... first 4 RCD v. first 4 NGLA... I can live with going for RCD.  Funny I never thought of it either... and I've played RCD four times to NGLA once!

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I understand there are ways to signal a green is all clear.  I've probably seen a lot more variations of that than you have:  signal flags, closed circuit TV, periscopes, bells, you name it.  There is still enough danger inherent in the situation that most clients would oppose it ... recognizing that 80% of them are opposing the blind shot and using the safety issue as a rationale.

I think a blind tee shot is much safer than a blind approach in terms of safety, closed circuit can do the trick for the tee shot but people are hitting an approach shot from all over the place and not right by the monitor.

By the way, that bell behind the 3rd tee at National really wreaks havoc with people hitting tee shots on #8 and #9 at Sebonack ... maybe we'll ask them to abandon it because of the noise pollution.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

7 & 8 at Pebble Beach are no slouches either.

Same for 17 & 18

As to back to back par 3's being the best two consecutive holes in the world,  15 seems a tad weak, but, a wonderful golf hole.

Making par or birdie at # 3 and # 4 at NGLA require "playing ones ass off", and bogies and higher are easy to come by, especially when the greens at speed.

Joe McBride was right, and I knew he was.  I was just a little gun shy after having enjoyed 20 years of being single.
The second time I ever saw my wife, and before I was actually introduced to her, I told the fellow next to me that I was going to marry her.  He told me that I was crazy, that I didn't even know her.  But, even then, I knew.  And, it was a given that I was crazy, so there was nothing new about that.

[Tom Huckaby]

 
Patrick:  love it.

Good calls re all of those golf holes, also.  The Pebble nominations are great ones.

In the end - and it doesn't pain me to say this, truly it doesn't - I believe you have it right.  3 and 4 NGLA would require the greatest skill to negotiate successfully.. and given they are all equally inspiring - and I do mean that - that will tip the scale eastward.

But it is arguable anyway!  

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I'd agree that it's more of an aversion to blind shots than a strong concern for safety, but, couched in terms of safety.

Periscopes and TV monitors seem so out of place on a golf course.

NGLA has blind shots from the tee on # 2, fairway on # 3, fairway on # 5, tee on # 11, fairway on # 11, fairway on
# 16 and fairway on # 18.  Yet, as we all know, it works quite well.

It would seem to be unfortunate that your creative process would be stifled in a situation where a blind hole might be an extraordinary introduction to the golfer.  But, I understand what happens when you take the King's Schilling.

As to Joe McBride's Bell on # 3, I'll be with his three sons on Sunday and will suggest that an acoustical berm be built on the south and western side of the tower to mute the clanging.

Where shall I send the bill  ?

[Phil McDade]

Boy, that is one beautiful looking golf hole -- and full of strategy and choices.

And, to get on my cart path soapbox again, look at how unobtrustive this one is -- blends in with the topography, off to one side (admittedly, maybe that's the angle), doesn't district from the visuals one focuses on at the tee.

Any other shots on the ground from NGLA? Most of the ones I've seen are from on high, and I've always gotten the impression the course is rather flat and subtle, not the boldness of the contours depicted on the 3rd in Peter's photo.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

The course is NOT flat, and it doesn't play flat.

"In play" elevation changes occur or can occur on # 1, # 2,
# 3, # 4, # 5, # 6, # 8, # 9, # 11, # 16, # 17 and # 18.

In addition, there's some elevation change approaching the green on # 10, and along # 12 as well as # 14 and # 15.

This is not a flat piece of land by any stretch of the imagination, even Donald Ross wouldn't call NGLA flat.

[ed_getka]

Tom H,
   I'm not saying NGLA 3-4 is clearly superior, I just can't think of a combo that is superior to that one. I'm sure there are some that can be argued for, but to top NGLA 3-4 would be hard.
    I would go for #16-17 CPC, but neither of those greens is very interesting. Greens are always my primary bias in any opinion I give.

[ed_getka]

Kingsley Club #3-4 is a contender. Fishers #4-5. CD #4-5, or 5-6, or 6-7, or 7-8. So there are possibilities. Pac Dunes #4-5, or 5-6, or 6-7.

[Tom Huckaby]

Some men are ass men, some are leg men, some are boob men...

Ed, you are a greens man.

 

Understood.  And thus I fully understand the preference for 3-4 NGLA.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Not sure what you mean by golf holes.  But I think we nailed it down already.  3 and 4 NGLA do require one to play his ass off for success.  So fair enough.

Prettiness counts, btw.  I can't imagine you take the Muccian tack... do you?

Good calls re the additions, my friend.  10/11 Pasa contends in terms of difficulty too.

TH

[James Bennett]

What is the relative scale of elevation change between NGLA #3 and Pine Valley #2?  Does Pine Valley #2 have a degree of 'Alps' characteristics?

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is the relative scale of elevation change between NGLA #3 and Pine Valley #2?  

Do you mean on the tee shot or approach or both.

At NGLA the hill is a clear impediment to the flight of the ball, hence, the shorter the drive, the longer the club and the more difficult it is to get enough loft to get over the hill, especially from the right side of the fairway which slopes downward, delofting the club even more.

At # 2 at PV, there's rarely a concern about getting enough loft early, you either reach the green or you don't, irrespective of the flight, and the green at PV is more receptive to approaches since it cants more, back to front.

Does Pine Valley #2 have a degree of 'Alps' characteristics?

NO

[James Bennett]

Patrick, thanks

If I understand correctly, the Alps involves playing over the top of a hill and then down a little to a green set on the other side of the hill (unlike PV #2 which is played to an elevated green on the top of a hill).  And, the Alps hole has a greater penalty for playing to the wrong side of the fairway because of the consequential downhill lie and difficulty in clearing the hill.  I have learnt something about the characteristics of an Alps hole on this point.

In terms of the elevation of the Alps hill versus #2 at PV green, I assume from your tone that the Alps is higher again than #2 at PV.  Is it perhaps 50% higher? Is it more?  I'm trying to understand how dramatic the elevation and effective slope (from shot point to top of hill) is.

It may be that #1 at St Andrews Beach Gunnamatta has some 'Alps like' chracteristics, at least from the lhs of fairway.  Although perhaps not as steep a climb.  And a par 5.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

As to Joe McBride's Bell on # 3, I'll be with his three sons on Sunday and will suggest that an acoustical berm be built on the south and western side of the tower to mute the clanging.

Patrick, please tell the McBride boys that Bill McBride of Newnan, Georgia, and now Pensacola, Florida, says hello.  I played two rounds at NGLA in September and it might have been two of the most fun rounds of my life in spite of not playing too well!  Holes like the Alps probe for the player's weaknesses!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, thanks

If I understand correctly, the Alps involves playing over the top of a hill and then down a little to a green set on the other side of the hill (unlike PV #2 which is played to an elevated green on the top of a hill).  

And, the Alps hole has a greater penalty for playing to the wrong side of the fairway because of the consequential downhill lie and difficulty in clearing the hill.  

That's a feature that may be confined to NGLA.
The right side of the fairway is the longest carry, but, gives the golfer the ability to get closer to the green, with perhaps a peek at the flag.  Drives that carry the right side, which don't feed to the center of the fairway are faced with a more difficult lie, versus drives that end up in the left side of the fairway.  But, those drives are closer to the hill, hence the need for an abrupt shot.

I have learnt something about the characteristics of an Alps hole on this point.

In terms of the elevation of the Alps hill versus #2 at PV green, I assume from your tone that the Alps is higher again than #2 at PV.  

It's more a matter of where the elevation comes into play.
At PV it's strictly at the green.  At NGLA its on the second shot and at the green

# 2 at PV was originally a skyline green, and could easily be converted back to a skyline green.

The green at NGLA is invisible from the middle of the fairway.
There's the hill and then the sky.

Is it perhaps 50% higher? Is it more?  I'm trying to understand how dramatic the elevation and effective slope (from shot point to top of hill) is.

You can go to google earth and get the elevation changes, although, I've found them not to be accurate all the time.

But, dismiss the comparison, there is none, the holes are vastly different from one another, in look and in play.

It may be that #1 at St Andrews Beach Gunnamatta has some 'Alps like' chracteristics, at least from the lhs of fairway.  Although perhaps not as steep a climb.  And a par 5.

I'm not familiar with the hole so I couldn't comment.

[Mark_F]

I'm not familiar with the hole so I couldn't comment.

Patrick,

You could always come down and spend the summer in Australia instead of Florida.

You might see lots of new and interesting things.

I'd take you there anytime.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Thanks for the offer, I'd like to take you up on it.
However, my son's school vacation schedule dictates my travel plans these days.