[Steve_ Shaffer]

For some reason, I can't copy and paste this article in today's Daily Camera which appeared at golfobserver.com. It's a good story about Irwin's business and how he wil be devoting more time to it now that his playing skills appear to be diminishing:

www.dailycamera.com/news/2006/dec/08/irwins-family-business-on-course-for-success/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

Irwin has indicated that the "distance" issue was a problem in designing golf courses for the wide variety of golfers who play today, from PGA Tour pros to beginners.

He also indicated that cost is a factor associated with distance when trying to design a golf course.

[Doug Ralston]

Hale is a hero of mine, and he is on my list of future course visits. I have heard some conflicting reports of his course in Dickson, TN. One says Greystone is "The best course under $35 I have ever played" [this from Moe Miller, who plays all over the country]. The other saying it is 'gimmicky', with too many blind shots. We shall see.

Doug

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Several years ago, Golf Digest interviewed prominent winners of the U.S. Open.  I believe this was the issue prior to the 2000 Open at Pebble Beach.  

I distinctly recall Irwin's comment that as a player, he responded more positively toward tighter, well-defined targets, and I wonder if this will carry into his career as a designer.  

I am not certain if he directly said he posesses an affinity for U.S. Open-style tests.  

I also believe he served as "Player Consultant" for one of the TPC Courses, but I am not certain as to what benefit or what extent he was involved.  

[Jim_Bick]

He is credited as the designer of TPC Wakefield Raleigh NC opened 2000. Nationwide tour event played there.

[Mark_Fine]

Doug,
Interesting you say that about Hale liking tighter well defined targets.  Hale interviewed a few days before I did for the Cherry Hills project.  I understand he wanted to put a series of echelon bunkers along the right side of the 18th hole fairway  

I wish him the best in designing "new courses"  
Mark

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Wakefield when it first opened.  It has average par fours but excellent par threes and fives.  It is not really tight off the tee but it is important to be able to shape shots and hit it to certain sides of the fairways to get the best angle to the green.  

[Doug Ralston]

Oops!

It appears WorldGolf was incorrect about Greystone being a Hale Irwin design. It is actually mark McCumber's piece.

But I am now reminded that I have played a Hale irwin afterall, and a pleasing one at that. Coyote Crossing in West Lafayette, IN is an excellent layout, which was in incredible condition when we played it. I think it better than the 'Boilermaker', Purdue design.

Doug

[Andy Troeger]

Coyote Crossing is a nice course and fits the "mold" as it seems as it has many well-defined and fairly narrow targets. I agree with Doug that I'd go back to it before Kampen.

That said, there's a good deal of water and "lost ball" zones and its pretty hard for someone who cannot carry the ball in the air pretty far (my Dad didn't care for it because the cross-creeks tended to eat his golf balls frequently). Despite that, I don't think its especially difficult for the accomplished player.

[Paul Payne]

Interesting.

I've played both the Kampen course and Coyote crossing and I thought Kampen was a stronger course throughout. It is a little contrived in that the terrain is out of place from the surroundings (all of the bumps and undulation are a bit scarce once you leave the course), but Coyote Crossing on the other hand had some realy good holes and some very weak ones IMO.

There are two "sister" holes there with essentially the same template. A long straight forced carry over mostly scrub rough, to a 90 dogleg with a fairly short shot to the green. What bothered me about both holes is that forcing the long carry was completely unecessary. In fact if he had left it as playable rough or some of it fairway, he could have opened up the corner slightly making the holes much more interesting. There could have been a variety of options but instead he chose a heroic shot on a hole that is not particularily dazzling.

I guess it wouldn't bug me as much except for that he repeated the hole again, as if to say this is what he preferred.

That being said I did like the opening hole and a few others on the front especially.  
 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Irwin's course in Prescott, AZ has been getting good reviews:

www.prescottlakes.com

[Doug Ralston]

I didn't have much by way of long carries off the tees. Of course, I play from much shorter tees.......

The creek sure was used with nice effect persistently throughout the course. Hope to play another 'Irwin' sometime.

Doug

[Jamey Bryan]

Hale served as "Player Consultant" at Tidewater in Myrtle Beach.  I've always suspected he had more to do with the design than Ken Tomlinson.

Regardless, Tidewater is a great course and was one of the earliest really good MB layouts.

I'd be interested to see more of his work.

Jamey

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,
Interesting you say that about Hale liking tighter well defined targets.  Hale interviewed a few days before I did for the Cherry Hills project.  I understand he wanted to put a series of echelon bunkers along the right side of the 18th hole fairway  

I wish him the best in designing "new courses"  
Mark

Mark-

  Yes, checked my source.  It was the "Open Mike" in Digest from the June 2000 issue.  The link is below, the quote is on the second page.

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/index.ssf?/features/open_mik_vdn1n18c.html

How did the bunkers turn out?

[Mark_Fine]

Doug,
We stuck with the "Flynn version" of the golf hole  
Mark

[PThomas]

I thought Coyote Crossing had some good holes too when I played it years ago

[Martin Del Vecchio]

I played New England Country Club in Bellingham, MA (I think).  It's credited to Irwin, but the course apparently has a troubled history of starts and stops.

I remember two of the holes quite well; the uphill-then-downhill par-4 ninth (quadruple bogey) and the long par-4 10th (triple bogey).  The other 16 holes were quite nice (I played them in 1 over par).

I have a positive feeling about the course, but it's certainly not worth the 2+ hour drive for me.

[Andy Troeger]

Interesting.

I've played both the Kampen course and Coyote crossing and I thought Kampen was a stronger course throughout. It is a little contrived in that the terrain is out of place from the surroundings (all of the bumps and undulation are a bit scarce once you leave the course), but Coyote Crossing on the other hand had some realy good holes and some very weak ones IMO.

 

Paul,
I have to admit that I just didn't care for Kampen at all on the trip where I played them both. I don't know if its always that way, but the heather was super long and thick, it was an immediate lost ball. With it being everywhere, the course was just hard and no fun with a serpentine long par four that seemed to be repeated at 2-3 times per nine. The course may be a stronger one, but I'd quite frankly have more fun on the old south course (Ackerman Hills) and if I was in town again I might play there over either one of them.

I recall at least one of the doglegs you mentioned...I was in the fairway with what seemed like a 60+ foot tree in my way...

[Ari Techner]

The Mountain Course at Cordillera is a Hale Irwin design.  I worked there for a summer back when I was in PGM.  Interesting course on a very challenging property at 8500ft elevation however it is definetly not a great course.  There were a few good holes but alot more bad ones like the 400y straight uphill 9th, 530y straight uphill 11th, blind 250ft drop shot 17th and 520y par 4 18th with basically an island fairway.    

[Paul Payne]

Andy,

My daughter is in her second year down at Purdue, so I have only played the course in the fall and winter months. I can imagine if the rough is up it could be tough.

I agree with you in that there is a lot of similarity between some of the holes but I found there is enough difference to keep them interesting. I would not consider this one of Dyes best but I do think it is a good solid course. I also didn't mean to give the impression that I did not like Coyote, I just think it waivered more between good holes and weak holes.

I also agree that the Ackerman course is a hoot. I like that course, some tough blind shots and some really good par 3 holes. I have played with some old timers there who can show you where the old routing was. It was shorter by a lot but looked even more interesting. #9 for instance did not run along the valley floor. It ran up the bank on the left side and then back across a swale at the top to a highly elevated green position. Must have looked like helll from the approach shot.

BTW how about the Boiler men starting out 8-1 and downing Mizz!! Alas... to young to last I'm afraid.

[Andy Troeger]

Paul,
I didn't get the impression that you did not like Coyote, and I would say I pretty well agree with your assessment. Its a nice course that's worth playing, but not a "build your trip around this one" type of place.

I would probably benefit from more trips around Kampen. I've still played it more pre-redo than post-redo, and its certainly much better than what was there before. Dye did not have much to work with. The terrain for the South course is actually much better, there's just not much land on that side of the road to make the course any longer than the 6400 that it is currently (at least from what I remember--its been awhile). The old routing sounds interesting too, I'm wondering though if you mean #8, the short par five? I think 9 currently is a par three.

Purdue and ND basketball are in the same boat with the nice starts...hopefully they keep it going.

[Paul Payne]

Andy,

You are right. It was #8.

[Andy Troeger]

8 is an interesting hole no matter where on that part of the course they'd put it from what I can tell. I played I think 5 rounds of match play on that course in the late 90's and never could figure out how best to attack it.  #16 was really the one that got me though, I think I lost that hole every single match (yet still made the finals the one year of the event before losing)!  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hale served as "Player Consultant" at Tidewater in Myrtle Beach.  I've always suspected he had more to do with the design than Ken Tomlinson.

Jamey, anyone who know Ken Tomlnson knows he doesn't take too many suggestions.  Ken was the moving force and main architect of Tidewater.  The worst thing about the course is the goofy routing.  Otherwise, I agree it is a good result.  One of the better Myrtle Beach offerings.
   Tommy

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