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Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2006, 01:45:16 PM »
Tom,

Yes, this is true but did any of the previous books really deal with any 'principles' of design?

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2006, 01:54:53 PM »
Brian
Each of them devote a chapter to laying out golf courses, none of them really go into principles that heavily, including Concerning Golf. Low's Design Principles were not in that book, he developed those at some point later on, although I'm not exactly sure when.

Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2006, 03:48:22 PM »
The principles that Rich has listed are in his book 'Concerning Golf' but hidden in the text.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2006, 06:02:23 PM »
Brian
Hidden? I've marked which principles are discussed.

1.  A golf course should provide both entertainment and a test (no)
2.  GCA should reward skill rather than trechnology (no)
3.  Centerlines should be fraught with danger (yes)
4.  On good GCA, the ground will dictate play (no)
4a. GCA should force golfers to think one or two shots ahead (yes)
5.  Fairway and green orientations should be integrated (no)
6.  Bunkers should be used sparingly (no)
7.  Putting greens should be low and narrow (no)
7a. Putting greens should tilt away from the player (no)
7ai.No green should be higher at the back than the front (no)
8.  The element of chance is the very essence of the game (no)
9.  No one should attempt to copy a great golf hole (no)
10. Undulations in the putting surfaces should be minimalized (no)
10a.Simple tilts in the surface are sufficient (no)
11. Committees should leave well enough alone (no)

Two is better than none.

JMorgan

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2006, 06:30:21 PM »
Dan:

I do not know why that would've been but I have a sneaking suspicion it may have something to do with some connections with a man by the name of Robert D. Pryde. He was the golf coach pre 1910 at Yale when a number of those innovative early architects were playing golf for Yale---ie Langford, Behr et al. Pryde was from Fife Scotland, emigrated to Conn. Eventually became a golf architect and an occasional globe trotting golf journalist as was Low who obviously knew and loved TOC, where Pryde came from. That may've been langford's connection to Low.

RD Pryde is credited with the first 9 holes at Penn State. Willie Park obviously thought much of the man as he retained the routing of those 9 holes when he expanded the course to 18 in 1922.

I am lead to believe based on their location that the Pryde holes are the ones that still exist on the course, however, from what I've seen only the routing is correctly credited to Pryde as Park rebuilt all the greens and hazards.

Slight aside - Pryde also designed Wyantenuck GC in Gt Barrington - one of the best courses in W. MA.

Pryde designed New Haven CC and a few other Connecticut courses -- Wethersfield, Race Brook, Ailing, Pine Orchard, and the first nine at Norwich CC.  In 1911, he also designed a course that I've tried to convince others to restore and redesign, Mohonk, which went from 9 holes in 1897 to 18 in 1911 back to nine just before WWII.  (According to the pro, Geoff Cornish and his crew came in and said it could or should not be done.)  He was originally a cabinetmaker who had apprenticed as a clubmaker and claimed to know Old Tom Morris.  While doing cabinetwork for one of the Hotchkiss clan in New Haven, he met Yale Law prof Tom Woolsley, who wanted to learn how to play golf.  Through Woolsey he got his first gig, New Haven.  Willie Park, Jr. was later brought in to redesign New Haven after Raynor and Ross were originally considered.  Pryde later became the First Exec Director of the Connecticut State Golf Assoc.  I've seen his clubs floating around on eBay.

Here's a Pryde ad (bottom) from American Golfer, June 1910:




Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2006, 04:30:16 AM »
Sean,

You are right about the date, my copy is a 2nd edition.

It was one of the first documented placements of a bunker to actually make a golfer think.  Bunkers up til then according to Simpson were placed without reason and penal.  The bunker on the fourth was placed with a 'purpose' on an inland course that gave options off the tee.

It is this bunker that encouraged Tom Simpson to start designing golf courses.

Tom,

The actual sentences are not there but I just read the first two pages and found references to entertainment and skill.

Such sentences as 'new possibility of using our strokes and suggest to us a further step in the progress of our golfing knowledge' ...skill

'...there is a great pleasure in change of scene and variety of environment in our golfing life'....entertainment

Brian

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2006, 07:36:14 AM »
Sean,

I think it was the first true strategic bunker 'inland' rather than 'wing' or 'hook' and 'slice' bunkers.  It was placed on the true line to the hole and this had not been done on an inland course before.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2006, 11:07:36 AM »
Sean,

You are right about the date, my copy is a 2nd edition.

It was one of the first documented placements of a bunker to actually make a golfer think.  Bunkers up til then according to Simpson were placed without reason and penal.  The bunker on the fourth was placed with a 'purpose' on an inland course that gave options off the tee.

It is this bunker that encouraged Tom Simpson to start designing golf courses.

Tom,

The actual sentences are not there but I just read the first two pages and found references to entertainment and skill.

Such sentences as 'new possibility of using our strokes and suggest to us a further step in the progress of our golfing knowledge' ...skill

'...there is a great pleasure in change of scene and variety of environment in our golfing life'....entertainment

Brian


Good try. It is misleading to suggest those 11 principles can be found in Concerning Golf. If someone bought Concerning Golf with the idea that they would find Low writing about his 11 principles (in any form) they would be disapointed.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 01:15:25 PM by Tom MacWood »

Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2006, 03:15:18 PM »
Tom,

Who really cares apart from you...

Does it really matter..you are one of the most pedantic persons I have ever spoken to.  It is a great chapter in a reasonable book, I really do not care what you think.

Who said there were 11 principles....I have never heard of the 11 principles before...is it only Rich that came up with them or do they really exist?  You apparently do not know where they came from...

I don't care, all I know is the book that I own is very informing.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Paul Payne

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2006, 03:51:32 PM »
Brian,

I have to agree with Sean on the point of the bunker placement. Are you sure of that? What about Sunningdale? There are a few examples of bunkers that seem to be placed in direct line between the tee or approach shot and the green.

Is this statement intended to apply to golf in the U.S. only? If so, I am not sure how the idea would not have spilled over on it's own.

Paul Payne

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2006, 06:39:22 PM »
Sean or Brian,

For my own benefit, what about Sunningdale?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2006, 07:15:07 PM »
Tom,

When John Low wrote his book Concerning Golf in 1904 there were no other books with reference to design.  Even Braid's book Advanced Golf came out afterwards in 1908.  The Book of Links came out in 1912.

The influence would probably have just been the book.  Brian

Brian I'm not so sure about that.  Low seems to have known and been respected by anyone who was anyone in those far off days.

In Sutton's "The Book of the Links" Colt writes

"There are some opinions that I value very greatly, and if, for instance, my old friend, Mr J L Low were to criticise my work unfavourably, I should feel that there must be something wrong..."

Rich can you tell us where you got these principle's from?


Clearly a biograpphy of Low would be very instructive. What else has been written about him?
Let's make GCA grate again!

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2006, 10:22:30 PM »
Tom,

Who really cares apart from you...

Does it really matter..you are one of the most pedantic persons I have ever spoken to.  It is a great chapter in a reasonable book, I really do not care what you think.

Who said there were 11 principles....I have never heard of the 11 principles before...is it only Rich that came up with them or do they really exist?  You apparently do not know where they came from...

I don't care, all I know is the book that I own is very informing.

The first time I read about Low's 11 principles was in Cornish & Whitten's The Golf Course. I also found an article written by Tom Simpson on them in a 40s issue of Golf Monthly. Low wrote a column for the Pal Mal and the Westminster Gazette, I suspect that is where they first appeared. Disregard if you don't care.

Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2006, 04:05:32 AM »
To quote Cornish and Whitten (page 328 The Architects of Golf):

...Low was also a respected authority on the rules of golf, serving as chairman of the Rules Committee of the Royal and Ancient until 1921.  John Low was on the staff of the Pall Mall Gazette and later the Athletic news and wrote extensively about golf in those and other newspapers.  He also wrote several books on golf, including Concerning Golf (1903),  the first book to codify the principles of golf course architecture

In the early 1900's Low and fellow club member Stuart Paton worked together in remodeling Woking golf Club.  Their efforts turned a staid Tom Dunn layout into a remarkably strategic course. Although they did no other design work, their discussion, publicity and controversy arising from their changes at Woking contributed greatly to the development of golf course architecture.

John Low's pinciples of golf course architecture, which were widely circulated and followed during his lifetime, included these points:

They go on to list a more in depth version of Rich's points.

Cornish and Whitten do not state where or when these principles where first published if at all.

According to Fred Hawtree in Aspects of Golf Course Architecture 1889 - 1924 it was Tom Simpson who named one of his many articles on golf - John Low's Principles Stand Up

In his book The Architectural Side of Golf (only 40 odd pages are really about design) Tom Simpson donates nearly a whole page to the bunker on the fourth at Woking to illustrate how one bunker can influence the first rate golfer in his choice of tactics and to trap is second-best strokes.

To quote Cornish and Whitten again (page 32 and 33):

"It was one particular bunker, or pair of bunkers, that made such an impact upon club member Tom Simpson, who would later design many courses himself.

The fourth hole at Woking resembled the 16th at St. Andrews in that both were straightaway par 4s with a rail line running along the right.  Paton futhered the resemblence by placing a pair of bunkers in the center of the fourth fairway at the landing area, in the manner of the "Principal's nose" at the Old Course's 16th.  Many years later Simpson recalled hearing outrage and condemnation of the revised hole by his fellow members at Woking and wrote:

'I went out fully prepared to find myself in complete agreement with the views which had been so eloquently expressed. So far, however, from agreeing.  I realised for the first time, as soon as I saw this much maligned hazard, that the true line to the hole should not always be the centre of the fairway, and the placing of a bunker had a far more serious and useful purpose than merely the punishing of a bad shot.  this led me to see the importance of golf architecture as an art as well as science.'

Paton and Low never designed or remodeled another course, although they spent years refining Woking.  Yet they deserve mention in any history of golf course architecture, for they demonstrated, perhaps before anyone else, that it was possible on an inland course to challenge a golfer in more than one way, in much the same fashion as the great links of Scotland"

So, John Low never published his own principles, they were made up by Simpson from Concerning Golf and many hours together at Woking.

Sunningdale first opened for play in 1901 when it was a Willie Park design but  of course the Master himself Colt made many changes to the course.

Woking was first laid out by Tom Dunn in 1893/4.

To quote the strokesaver from Woking:

'Woking also played a part in the development of golf course architecture. Our fourth hole can be considered to be one of the first, if not the first, strategic holes in English golf.  Shortly after 1900, our then Chairman of the Green Committee, without prior consultation with his colleagues, placed two bunkers in the middle of the fairway.  His intention was to compel players to make a decision on the line of the drive and to reward those who took the braver line appropriately.  Such options are now commonplace in golf course design, thanks to the innovation on our course.'

Tom M,

I don't care where the principles come from but I do like them.  

I think I have now proven that Low himself did not actually create any true principles but Tom Simpson created them from what he had read in the book and of course his time with Low at Woking....but to be honest I don't care.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 04:14:37 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2006, 06:58:07 AM »
1. The principles are not in Concerning Golf (I don't know why you continue to say they come from that book, anyone who reads that short chapter will clearly see you are wrong)
2. Where do your read Low never published his principles (they were widely circulated?)...that they were made up by Simpson from Concerning Golf
3. Willie Park goes into more detail on golf architecture in his earier book
4. Paton collaborated w/Simpson on design work
5. Low revised the Old course and was involved at Princes
6. I date the revisions at Woking at between 1904-1907
7. For a guy who claims he doesn't care thats a hell of lot information

I like his principles too. There is no doubt he was one of the most influential and important figures in early golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 07:24:14 AM by Tom MacWood »

Brian Phillips

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2006, 08:01:48 AM »
6. I date the revisions at Woking at between 1904-1907
7. For a guy who claims he doesn't care thats a hell of lot information
The article in the strokesaver is by the club so I am presuming they have the documentation proving the 1900 date.

Okay, I lied about caring... ;)

Where were they published then?

What do you mean that Willie Park went into more detail?  Detail does not mean quality.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

T_MacWood

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2006, 08:28:07 AM »
You've got me on the quality issue...what Park wrote ain't going to be quoted any time soon. But even Low's philosophy in 1903 is quite a bit different than what you find in his 11 principles. For example bunkers should be used sparingly, thats not what he advocated in 1903.

There was a good article on Woking in Golf Illustrated 1904 describing all the holes and the 4th had no fairway bunkers. I have found reports of renovation work there in 1907...that timing would make sense if it inspired Simpson to become an architect, which would have been about 1909.

I don't know where the 11 principles were first published. The only articles I've seen by Low are a few (from the Westminster Gazette and Pal Mal Gazette) that were re-published in British golf magazines.

Paul Payne

Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2006, 08:39:47 AM »
Sean, Brian,

I was aware that Colt laid out the second 18 at Sunningdale in the 1920's but did he do significant rework of the old 18 at the same time? If so, how much of Willie Parks work is still visible? There are a number of bunkers that fall in or near the center line and I am curious if their pedigree is clear?

Norbert P

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Re:John Low's Design Principles
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2006, 01:21:09 PM »
... John Low, and ... his 11 design principles...  

1.  A golf course should provide both entertainment and a test
2.  GCA should reward skill rather than trechnology
3.  Centerlines should be fraught with danger
4.  On good GCA, the ground will dictate play
4a. GCA should force golfers to think one or two shots ahead
5.  Fairway and green orientations should be integrated
6.  Bunkers should be used sparingly
7.  Putting greens should be low and narrow
7a. Putting greens should tilt away from the player
7ai.No green should be higher at the back than the front
8.  The element of chance is the very essence of the game
9.  No one should attempt to copy a great golf hole
10. Undulations in the putting surfaces should be minimalized
10a.Simple tilts in the surface are sufficient
11. Committees should leave well enough alone

Any comments and/or thoughts?

12 of these 15 lines contain "should" in them.  Though I find the book interesting and informative, these lists often preload truth with neo-formulas in the guise of confidence.

E.g., #4 "On Good GCA, the ground will dictate play."

 My opinion is that that is the prime principle to adhere to that should (oy) trump all the other shoulds.  

Lists may be great for raising eyebrows and generating  impulsive debates and theories, but I much prefer Simpsons method of writing eloquently about GCA with only an editor's Table of Contents for guidance, as in his and Henry's "Archie Side of Golf".  

... off to find some White Horse Whisky . . . first whisky to use a screw top!    

 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M