Worst course in a good setting

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - curious why you're so anti-Tain... I played it once and greatly enjoyed it.  Sure it's not Dornoch, but it's also not on land anywhere near as dramatic as Dornoch.  Is the setting that great, and the course that bad?

This is a loaded question indeed...

Also not sure what you mean by:


If you ask me about great settings the list changes considerably.


Please explain.

TH

ps - congrats on getting your dream Rose Bowl.  

[D_Malley]

how about this one


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8929/longreef7lr.jpg

[D_Malley]

[D_Malley]

longreef, syndey australia
not a very good course, but the setting is spectactular

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - gotcha.

Still, do you think a better course could have been made there?  Also is it really THAT great of a setting?

I can certainly understand that there are better courses... I'm just not seeing how if fits under this topic, that's all.  

TH

[rjsimper]

And Sean, no matter what you say, for the site given, I will always think Sandpines is a bad/mediocre course with three or four good holes at best.

Jordan Wall,

That's not what you said on this very board, and in the very thread you reference.  For your review, I present you your exact words:

After playing this course here is my opinion...

...decent, fun course, really not bad.

I can promise that you will get little yardage from this group by adopting what appears to be the prevailing sentiments of the more vocal GCA members and bandwagoning your way to the front of that pack.  Is Sandpines a lightning rod on this board? Yes it is...but you will get much more respect if you choose your battles based on what you actually feel, not what you think that the majority of others would agree with.  

The reason you get so much flak for your stance on Sandpines is because A - you didn't feel the way you do now when you first played the course and B - "missed opportunity" has somehow manifested itself as "worst course ever" in your mind.

Look at your words again.  Read your first post in the thread and the words I've posted above.  You didn't hate the course as much as you claim to now...and there's nothing wrong with that...just stick with it.  Revisionist historians are the worst kind.

[Brad Tufts]

Sean L.,

Widow's Walk actually crossed my mind when thinking of something to add here.  It's an undulating property built at the edge of a landfill through former sand-quarry land.  There have been many courses built that have shown this type of land to be greatly enhanced by a golf course and vice-versa.

However, at WW, the developers and designer went with the super-environmental approach (which is how they've always advertised, with the Audubon awards and such).  I found this approach to make the course claustrophobic at best, and ridiculously penal at worst.  My question is why go the super-environmental route as a response to a site that man's hand has totally torn up when a regular golf course would vastly improve it anyway?

I'm all for integrating a golf course with an environmental approach, but it is possible without sacrificing the golf.  So, to answer your question:  They took very serviceable land and made a course that alot of people don't like, where it was very possible to conjure something much better.

Sean A.,

I thought Tralee and Rosses Point weren't the greatest of courses either (although I liked RP quite a bit), but I don't know if they belong on a "worst courses in a great setting" list.  I felt the same way about Samoset in Maine (a common opinion), but the course isn't bad at all, it's just not great.  

[Scott Coan]

Brad,

As regards Widow's Walk the "developer" was the Town of Scituate and there was quite a bit of opposition to building the course, even though the "Pits" (as the parcel of land was referred to) was a complete eyesore.

My father chaired the committee that selected Dr. Hurdzan and I can tell you that they were handcuffed from the start.  There was less than 100 acres of land to build that course so I am not sure that anybody could have routed anything better into that piece of land.

The real shame is that the town had another piece of land on the other side of Driftway that would have enabled a spectacular course to be built.  It would have required an expensive tunnel to be built (with small towns, everything's expensive) and that's if they ever could have got it past the Conservation Commission.  There was no way in hell the CC was ever going to let the town build on that land.

The only reason the whole "environmental course" label was attached to the course in the first place was to appease the Greenies that were in opposition.  All in all, the building of this course was a classic case of town politics.  It is a wonder it was even built.  To that end, a decent (yet cramped) course was built where one never would have existed.

Alway nice to say woulda, coulda, shoulda but often there are realities that get in the way.

[Tom Huckaby]

I honestly can't think of a bad course in a great setting.  

Ciao

BINGO!

Check and mate, Mr. Mucci.

 

[Brad Tufts]

Sean A.,

I understand.  I would put Carne #1, RP #2, and Enniscrone #3.  Something about Enniscrone just rubbed me the wrong way, whereas generally the same quirky, wild features at Carne thrilled.  You just never know, right?

Scott,

Thanks for the additional info.  I admit that I only played WW once about 5-6 years ago, and it wasn't in great shape.  Unfortunately the other courses built on the So. Shore since have precluded a return trip.  It has always seemed to me that WW has gotten alot of press as a Boston-area public golf option, but the paragraph of magazine recommendation always mentions the Audubon Society as opposed to one of the course's merits.  If the enviro. focus allowed them to build it, then I have to fall back on the golf is better than no golf theory.  I guess I'm just not the target golf type.

Out of curiosity, where exactly was the other property across the Driftway?  Might be a good one for an armchair exercise....

-Brad  

[David Wigler]

Just once again: Every site that ranks courses in Michigan that is not related to GCA ranks Bay Harbor Top 5 or so!

As to if someone here could have done better with that site, I would say it is unprovable.

If I could get there and had the money, BH would definitely be on my Michigan 'wish list'.

Doug

P.S.: I have heard good things about other Hills courses up there; Shepard's Hollow and Red Hawk.

Bay Harbor is the clear winner in my mind.  Almost anyone could have done better with the links nine and I believe it took someone who plays golf to optimize a site as unique and challenging as the quarry nine.  The bunker work on the links nine is simply embarrassing for a links course and the quarry nine has places where the visuals are incredible but there are no golf shots to be played.  

As for every non GCA ranking putting it top five in Michigan, I only know of three rankings that I consider credible Golfweek, Gold Digest, Golf.  Bay Harbor is 11th in Michigan in Golf Digest, 6th public (Which I am guessing makes it about 30th overall) in Golfweek, and 2nd public (Which I am guessing makes it about 12th overall) in Golf.

Those are good rankings.  That written - and I have said this many times - I believe it is amongst the finest sites I have ever seen for a golf course in North America.  I do not believe that the site at Whistling Straits, Kiawah Island, Arcadia Bluffs or Bandon Dunes is as good.  Is Bay Harbor a good enough course with stunning views - of course.  Should Bay Harbor have been a bulletproof top 20 course in GW modern and top 50 in GD and Golf - absolutely and the fact that it makes none of their top 100's is why it belongs at the top of my list.

[Steve_Lemmon]

Galway in Ireland.

[Scott Coan]

Out of curiosity, where exactly was the other property across the Driftway?  Might be a good one for an armchair exercise....
-Brad  

Brad, I added a GoogleEarth snapshot to my reply #67.  The additional piece of town land is directly south of Driftway and includes everything between the river and the sewar treatment plant.  From memory it's about 50 acres.  That combined with the 100 used for WW would have enabled a SPECTACULAR routing.

[Jack_Marr]

Jack

Ran doesn't know all.  Carne is a great course. There are no two ways about it.  

Worst courses on great sites.  Its a bit of a loaded question for sure because all of these courses are still very playable.  My nominations:

Tain
Gullane #1
Troon
Hunstanton
Aberdovey
Trevose
Portmarnock

Easily the biggest disappointment was Portmarnock, but the worst course in this category has to be Tain.  

If you ask me about great settings the list changes considerably.


Ciao

Hi Sean

Of course, I think it's great. Not everything about it is great, but I am proud to be a member. As I say, it's like nowhere else I've ever played.

In fact, I joined after playing it once. I think the majority of people love it.

[Kevin Pallier]

In the sense that the end-result doesn't live up to the location....

In Australia:
Long Reef (NSW)
National Ocean (VIC)
+ The Coast (NSW)
+ Bondi GC (NSW)  

O/S:
Gullane
Nth Berwick (East)
Old Head

[Steve_Lemmon]

I am correcting my earlier post.  I meant to say Galway Bay, not Galway.  My slander was a little too casual.  Galway Bay is newer, encourages cart golf, and is just too much like playing at any normal US course.  

[Chris Kane]

No wonder The National's shares fell so hard, so fast.

   They actually trebled in price over the first eighteen months.

[Brad Tufts]

Sean A.,

I had the Enniscrone argument a while back with Mike Sweeney, who is an overseas member.  I just thought a couple of the holes in the most severe of dunes were pretty wacky, several are still located in the flat inland area from the dunes, and there were a couple holes near the end that offered almost unplayable challenges.  #14 or 15 is a long flat par 4 nearest the beach of about 440 yards, and the green has 3 tiers to accept a shot from 180+...ouch, and of course #17's tabletop green is well-documented as rock hard and virtually impossible to hold.

As for Rosses Point, I do admit there are several holes after "The Jump" to the lower part of the course that are pretty flat and non-descript, but both the beginning 4 and the final 4 or 5 are very fun, with a couple highlights in between.

[Tom Dunne]

Sean,

Aberdovey? Say it ain't so!

td

[Phil McDade]

Sean - curious why you're so anti-Tain... I played it once and greatly enjoyed it.  Sure it's not Dornoch, but it's also not on land anywhere near as dramatic as Dornoch.  Is the setting that great, and the course that bad?

This is a loaded question indeed...

Also not sure what you mean by:


If you ask me about great settings the list changes considerably.


Please explain.

TH

ps - congrats on getting your dream Rose Bowl.  

AwsHuckster

I am not anti-Tain.  I think the course is pretty good, but I am in no way anxious to play it again.  

Several great settings with courses that can't nearly match them come to mind.

Nefyn
Shiskine
North Berwick East Links
Tralee
Rosses Point

Fortunately most of these courses are cheap enough to not feel robbed.

Ciao

Sean:

Picking on Shiskine? Isn't that a bit like picking a fight w/ the blind kid at school?

Shiskine's a neat little course on...how many acres? It's 12 holes, for gosh sakes. With a big hill in the middle and that towering cliff thing hemming it in on one side, and the beach on the other. It's got three really cool holes -- the Crow's Nest, the drop par 3 after that, and the one where you hit a blind shot into the punchbowl green. The rest of the holes are a bit similar, but the turf itself is very good links turf -- better than some other Scottish links trumpeted here -- and the holes are fun, if not all that challenging. Make it better by limiting it to 9 holes? What fun is that, when you can play 12?

[Padraig Dooley]

Old Head

[peter_mcknight]

SVCC Weyhill Course--would have been better had Grace been alive.  Oh, the thoughts I have conjured up on how to improve what's there...