[Tim Pitner]

Based on what I've read of Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse (unfortunately, I haven't played either), I think it's fair to describe Riverdale Dunes as the Denver-area equivalent of these two courses (public, affordable and linksy).  I'm guessing that most people who have played Rustic/Wild Horse and Riverdale Dunes would rate RD as the lesser of the courses.  Why?  What does RC/WH have that RD doesn't?  Is it the ground game?  More movement in the greens?  Overall design?  I believe that RD is the oldest of the three courses, and not as self-consciously minimalist.  Is this a factor in the analysis?  

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, I'm one who has played all three courses. For me it all boils down to the limitations Pete's courses place on one's creativity. Hit it here or you're dead, overly penal holes that rely on water for their butt puckerability. They are non-recoverable, and only fun when heroically successful.

 At RC and WH dictated shots are virtually non-existed. The golfer is asked to pay closer attention to the movements of the ground greenside, resulting in more creative ways to get the ball close.

 Of course, we are talking about when RC and WH are Firmed to their optimal maintenance meld.

As RC & WH both head in a directions away from their intended firmness, Riverdale Dunes gets better and better everyday.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

There are six holes at Riverdale Dunes where the water is in play -- 4, 7, 8, 11, 15 and 17 -- and only three of them where it's really as unforgiving as you say (7, 15 and 17).  

That's a lot compared to Wild Horse which has none, but Rustic Canyon has lateral hazards in play on several holes, arguably just as much as Riverdale Dunes.  It just isn't open water so you dismiss its influence.

There are some greens built for run-up approaches at Riverdale Dunes, too.  Of course it has to be frozen to really appreciate them.

[Doug Wright]

Tim,

I haven't played Rustic Canyon but vis a vis Wild Horse I think the difference at Wild Horse is width and a playability factor (perhaps the opposite of what Adam's calling "dictated shots") plus I think the course ties together better, whereas Riverdale Dunes is schizoid (between what I call the "Doak holes" and the "Perry holes"--guess which ones are better... ) I prefer the Wild Horse greens too--more variety and movement--although the 5th green at Riverdale Dunes, which I think is one of the first that Tom did, is the best on either course because there must be 30 great pin positions on that large green.

There are some greens built for run-up approaches at Riverdale Dunes, too.  Of course it has to be frozen to really appreciate them.

Conditioning is an issue at Riverdale Dunes--generally way too wet. Riverdale and Wild Horse are definitely closer together now and through the winter months. It plays brown, firm and fast when we get those lucky days in January/February when the ski/golf combo is an option.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
That's a lot compared to Wild Horse which has none, but Rustic Canyon has lateral hazards in play on several holes, arguably just as much as Riverdale Dunes.  It just isn't open water so you dismiss its influence.
...

For the most part, Rustic Canyon's lateral hazards are only in play if you want to bring them into play. Generally, there is so much room there that you don't have much to worry about from the lateral hazards unless you are really going for risk/reward all the time. Even my SprayGun (TM) driver only duck hooked into one hazard when I played there.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:  The same is true for Riverdale Dunes, you can bail away from the water at every opportunity except the 17th, although the bail-out side is not so inviting.

[ed_getka]

Tim,
   I didn't play Riverdale Dunes when I was there, but I did take a ride around in a cart for a look see before rushing off to the airport. I have played multiple rounds at WH and RC.
   What I most vividly remember about RD were the "dunes" on some holes that required you to hit your tee shot to the correct place in the fairway if you wanted to see the green. It didn't strike me as being overly punishing, and I am a shaky driver at best. There was some water out there, and I dislike water holes generally since I like to try to recover from my mistakes. The water didn't seem like to be overbearing like it can be on some courses. I did notice a few interesting greens at RD, but in general I think I can safely say that RC and WH have more interesting greens, with the nod going to RC.
   Without having played RD, I don't know how strategic it is, but RC for all its width is pretty strategic, and you begin to learn over time where preferred angles are. The drawback to RC to me is the width off the tee, that doesn't challenge you enough to intimidate you. The course makes up for this with the demands of the next shot, but I feel like every shot should have some amount of pressure on it. #11 and #14 are exceptions before someone starts howling at me. Oh, and #18 is my own personal demon pit.
   For me I would rank the 3 courses RC, WH, and RD. My primary consideration is always the greens and surrounds, so factor that bias into my opinion.

Adam,
   What's going on at WH, has Josh left?

[Tim Pitner]

The drawback to RC to me is the width off the tee, that doesn't challenge you enough to intimidate you. The course makes up for this with the demands of the next shot, but I feel like every shot should have some amount of pressure on it.

Ed,

These are interesting thoughts.  I'm assuming that there are preferred places to be off the tee at Rustic.  Then, there would be some pressure to be in those desired locations.  I don't see why wide fairways would necessarily relieve the player of any pressure.  Must shots really be intimidating?  

[ed_getka]

Tim,
   Not necessarily intimidating, but you shouldn't feel comfortable standing up to the ball. Driving is the worst part of my game, and I feel comfortable on every tee at RC except #11 which I doubt many golfers feel comfortable on, and on #18 (my personal demon).
    I think a course should have a balance between tee shots, approaches, short game demands, and putting demands. At Rustic there are preferred places to be off the tee, but if you don't get there you find it harder to make birdie. Generally, if you know your way around the course you can still make pars with a wayward drive that doesn't end up out of play.
   I hope that makes sense. For examples of balanced courses, I think Royal Dornoch and Prairie Dunes are great examples.

[Tim Pitner]

Ed,

I agree that a course should make demands of one's driving in addition to other parts of one's game.  But, you shouldn't feel comfortable standing up to the ball?  If you're saying that you ought not feel like you can hit it anywhere, I agree, but I love looking at a hole that is so pleasing to the eye on the tee box that I can't wait to hit it out there.  

I've come to be an advocate of exteme width.  I don't have any problem with a course that allows you to make par even with wayward drives.  Obviously, it shouldn't be easy to do that, but possible.  As an opponent of water and advocate of recovery shots, it seems like you'd agree.  I don't know Rustic, but I have a hard time thinking that playability off the tee is a negative.

From what I've seen of Prairie Dunes, it looks awfully unforgiving.  What's the effective difference between water and the deep hay when it comes to recovery shots?

[ed_getka]

Tim,
   If you are going to use logic in your arguments how do you expect me to have a chance?  Prairie Dunes' gunsch is certainly water-like in its ability to take away recovery shots, but I found for the most part that you had to be pretty off line there to get in the gunsch, and while there are some intimidating-looking shots off the tee, the reality is that there aren't long forced carries, and even with my lack of driving ability, I felt like the course was playable.
    I would say that #3 & 9 tee shot are the most difficult from the back tee for me, but it didn't feel impossible. If you replaced the gunsch with water on those two holes I think the holes would become much more daunting. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
   At PD every shot requires your complete attention, but for a 12 handicap like me, it didn't seem unfair. I can certainly see how someone could disagree with my assessment. PD can be defined in 3 words, no let up, but yet I find it fair, fun, and a great test of golf.

[Glenn Spencer]

Riverdale is fabulous. I was lucky enough to play in the 1993 US Am Publinks there. Ben Curtis shot a second round 78 and in one of the more unfortunate happenings in golf history, I was able to sneak in and get the last spot. Can someone refresh my memory about 17 though? I don't remember this hole. Was it a par 3? You may not have to carry the water on 15, but it is not like there is a lot of room to the right there. I was watching a friend after my round and I saw Kevin Kraft at -7 for the day thru 14 and he made a 12 on 15. Ended up missing the cut by 2-3. I adored the 13th hole. I really liked the entire place, a great tournament golf course. You have to be on your toes all day long.

[Tim Pitner]

Glenn,

Sounds like very good playing on your part.  David Berganio won that event, didn't he?  I find Riverdale very challenging from the back tees, but the Nike/Nationwide Tour guys tore it up when they played there several years back.

You're right, there isn't much room to the right on #15.  #17 is a par 3, about 200-220 yards from the back.  Water right, along with some bunkers and Dye railroad ties/sleepers.  Rough and bunkers left.  It has a huge green, which pinches in toward the center, and the back right pin placement offers a very small target.  

[Scott Szabo]

Tim,

I've never played Rustic Canyon, but have played the other two quite often.  To say Riverdale Dunes is like Wild Horse is a bit of a stretch, although the playing conditions of Wild Horse appear to be getting softer as the years go by, unfortunately.

As for them both being public, and ridiculously affordable, you hit the nail on the head with those.  

You should make the trip to Gothenburg and see for yourself.  I assure you, you won't be sorry.  Wild Horse is that good.  In my opinion, I wouldn't go that far with Riverdale Dunes.

[Tim Pitner]

Scott,

Based on photos, I would say that Wild Horse is a different kind of course than Riverdale.  I made the comparison because Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse seem to be held up as the gold standards of affordable, public golf (especially of the links-like variety), and I wondered how close or how far my favorite public course in the Denver area, Riverdale, is to those standards.  I will definitely get to Wild Horse sometime soon.  

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tim,

Please call if you need a travel partner. I'm thinking.....first decent weather day over 50?

As a matter of fact, I'll drive. Just supply the breakfast 'ritos

[Glenn Spencer]

Tim,

Thanks for the nice words and the reminder of 17. I will have to dig a litter deeper. The hole is definitely coming back to me, but I need to see it agin. You would know as well as I would about Berganio, I was 152 and down the road. I do think he was medalist though. I know he won two of them and they were 2 years apart, Otter Creek and then one two years later. I do think it was 91,93, so that would be Riverdale. In fact, I am pretty sure that it was. I would send anyone here to play golf and be confident that they would like it. It is a fun golf course. I can see the Nike guys tearing it up though. What years were those. It didn't seem especially long in 93. I thought it played pretty fast for us. I remember hitting a lot of irons and one of the guys in my group even hit iron off 13.

[Glenn Spencer]

Since we are comparing these types of courses. I haven't see the other two, but it sounds like there isn't any water. I actually think that the Harvester is a good comparison to Riverdale. The Harvester is a VERY enjoyable place to play golf. A much different experience than Riverdale, but the courses do have some things in common.

[Tim Pitner]

Glenn,

Interesting that you should compare Riverdale and Harvester--although I'm a native Hawkeye, I've never played Harvester.  It's been on my list for sometime.  My trips to Iowa these days are usually centered on Iowa City and Kinnick Stadium so I haven't gotten out to western Iowa recently.  

I'm not positive of the dates on the Nike Tour tournament at Riverdale (I think it was the Nike Tour then)--I want to say 1998-1999.  As I recall, they only went there for two years.  Denver has too much else going on in the sports world to draw many people to minor league golf.  I don't remember who won, but I do remember watching Bobby Wadkins tee off on #15, the water hole, with what might have been a 5 wood that had a clubhead about the size of a spoon--nice draw right in the middle of the fairway.  That club was a relic.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

Interesting that you should compare Riverdale and Harvester--although I'm a native Hawkeye, I've never played Harvester.  It's been on my list for sometime.  My trips to Iowa these days are usually centered on Iowa City and Kinnick Stadium so I haven't gotten out to western Iowa recently.  

I'm not positive of the dates on the Nike Tour tournament at Riverdale (I think it was the Nike Tour then)--I want to say 1998-1999.  As I recall, they only went there for two years.  Denver has too much else going on in the sports world to draw many people to minor league golf.  I don't remember who won, but I do remember watching Bobby Wadkins tee off on #15, the water hole, with what might have been a 5 wood that had a clubhead about the size of a spoon--nice draw right in the middle of the fairway.  That club was a relic.  

HARVESTER IS FABULOUS!!!!!

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