GCA? How Hard Is It?

[Forrest Richardson]

Jeff — Are you sure it was hockey, and not hookey?

JSlonis — Yes, good points.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jslonis, you do have some good points but let’s look at the hockey analogy for a second. The physical ability needed is of the utmost importance, if you do not have that there will never be a chance. Even if you are passionate about GCA and eager to learn you still need to have some skills that could compare to the physical skill you need to succeed in sports. In hockey that physical ability is built up ever since you first step foot on the ice. You can say the same thing about design. It is something that is developed over time. I would assume most designers always had some interests in not just sketching or art but were designing things at a young age. Those skills progress through high school and into college and you are constantly improving on your "physical ability". This is a reason why Joe Schmo from golf club atlas won’t be able to design a good golf course. If you have never designed a thing in your life what makes you so sure someone can design a golf course on 200 acres of land!

[JSlonis]

Jslonis, you do have some good points but let’s look at the hockey analogy for a second. The physical ability needed is of the utmost importance, if you do not have that there will never be a chance. Even if you are passionate about GCA and eager to learn you still need to have some skills that could compare to the physical skill you need to succeed in sports. In hockey that physical ability is built up ever since you first step foot on the ice. You can say the same thing about design. It is something that is developed over time. I would assume most designers always had some interests in not just sketching or art but were designing things at a young age. Those skills progress through high school and into college and you are constantly improving on your "physical ability". This is a reason why Joe Schmo from golf club atlas won’t be able to design a good golf course. If you have never designed a thing in your life what makes you so sure someone can design a golf course on 200 acres of land!

It's a shame George Crump isn't alive, you could've asked him your last question.

While I agree that most skills of a high level are a learned process, it's too difficult to compare physical and intellectual skills.  With a professional sport, all the passion and mental ability in the world can't overcome a lack of physical ability.  While a lot of design comes from an individuals "eye", there is still a great deal to it that can be learned from proper study and teaching.  This is where I see the disconnect between the two.  

For example, do you think Jack Nicklaus was born more with the ability to play great golf or the ability to create good golf courses?  I would say that his exposure to countless golf courses and subsequent study led more to his ability as an architect then any inherent talent.

[archie_struthers]

 


I kind of got stuck at Twisted Dune, altough it was great fun.
Obviously you need some help with engineering as drainage is so critical. I think getting the holes to flow together, with varying degrees of difficulty is critical to success.

We really didn't anticipate just how much gravel would be on site, and that the sand layers were so hard to get to. We had perfect fill material for building roads, and made drainage an exceptionally difficult issue.

We knew we had an outlet for the fill material where the Borgata now sits, but really expected to hit more pure sand when digging.This caused some problems that affect the course even today when it really rains, despite putting lots of pipe under the ground. Kudos to superintendent Steve Lane, who does a really nice job at Twisted.

As to difficulty in designing I think that the flow of the course, the basic sequencing of the holes is critical to a good design, and would be the hardest thing for most amateur architects (myself included) to get right. I kept thinking about how most my favorite  courses ebb and flow in difficulty and tried to emulate them in this regard. Too hard is worse than too easy, IMHO!

In hindsight I would change holes three and seventeen for sure, and play #9 from the front tees as a really good par four for starters.  

p.s. Jamie Slonis thanks for mentioning me in the same  
      Mr. Crump, although we both know he's a plus six

[RJ_Daley]

All you regular folk who see golf holes as you drive by interesting terrain...

What is the inherent flaw in every one of those holes we see?

Adam, I only skimmed this thread, and may have missed an answer by someone else above.  But, I think most of us have the imagination to do those "drive by designs" because we've seen many interesting holes and terrain and can use our imaginations to superimpose things we have seen onto new land.  As someone else said above, routing those hole design ideas together in a coherent pattern of 18 sequential holes of interest and merrit is another thing.

But, what I really think is the one aspect that the drive-by designers don't generally understand is the moving of water on the surface, through the ground and under the ground, based on understanding the native soil and sub surface characteristics on any given piece of ground.  As the old saw goes, drainage, drainage and drainage are the three most important things.  Of course that problem of drainage takes into account knowledge of many other things involving grading/shaping techniques, etc.  And, most don't understand the capacity and application of water to the turf; what is mandatory, what is doable, what is optional, and how all that relates to their routing and design of hole ideas, etc.   Hell, I'd be interested to see the % of function failures by working and experienced archies that are made in these areas, despite having had some good routing and hole design/strategy ideas.

[George Pazin]

Could it be done? Sure, there's plenty of real like examples that show this.

But I wonder how many disasters are out there that we never heard about, or never even got off the ground.

Allow me a slightly self-indulgent (though really more revealing and embarassing) analogy:

I bought my screenprinting equipment with close to zippo knowledge of how to print t shirts. I think I once screenprinted a card in 7th grade, that was about the extent of my experience. I asked the people who had experience printing t's one question, that I deemed to be crucial:

Does it require little artistic ability, or no artistic ability? (Because there is a gigantic gray area between these two, imho).

They said none, just patience (something I have in spades). I bought my equipment, read a book and a few articles and started teaching myself how to do it.

What's the result? 13 years later, I'm still in business, and I think I am okay printer, but I would've saved YEARS of my life if I had simply learned before I leapt.

Speaking as an outsider, I'd guess there is a gigantic gulf between designing a course and building a course, and I'd surmire that's where the biggest problems would initially occur.

However, if one is looking to actually start a business, as opposed to being a one hit wonder, then Brian Phillips statement says it all!

P.S. If you spent any time with Archie, you would see why he was successful at Twisted Dune. And if you were truly interested in building a course, I'd say spend as much time as possible with people like Archie, Tom, Jeff, paul, Ian, Brian, Mike, etc. (which is what I intend to do in a few years ).

[paul cowley]

Jeff and Forrest....I guess one can surmise from your experience that hockey skills don't sharpen ones prowess in GCA and maybe one reason we don't see more hockey pros turning to golf design as a second career.

And as much as I would like to agree with my two colleagues, I really cannot because I represent the exception rather than the rule.....I am the jslonis or George Pazin who, through the dint of having gone through more back doors than most illegals, has learned and taught myself all the that was required to advance from amateur to professional in this and other related trades.....I never worked in the office of another GCA and am but a sport or scion on the GCA family tree.

I am the torch bearer and the beacon for all the oppressed GCA wannabees.......I am the light.

[Forrest Richardson]

Practice makes perfect...so be careful!

[Tom_Doak]

Practice does make you better.  I am a lot more practiced at what I'm doing than I was when I started High Pointe.  I know how to get stuff built better, and I have guys to help who have learned what I'm trying to do over several years.  I don't know if my ideas on routing or shot values are any better than they were 15 years ago, but I'm way better at getting them into the ground -- and I had 4 years of experience with Pete Dye before trying it on my own.

[paul cowley]

Practice makes perfect...so be careful!

....insinuating?

[RT]

About twenty years ago Pete Dye said this in a certain situation I was privy to; I can't go into the details what promted him to say it, but was as following: "Anybody who plays golf can design a course; there are just some of us who are better at it than others."


RT

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

How did those amateur designs turn out? Or did the professionals also participate?

Do you think that such an exercise could be taken to next level by having all the data an architect can normally obtain from the client, such as topography, soil specs for the site, budget, cost of local supplies, complete weather date, imaginary client wishes, etc? Some architects even work this way in the real world, right?

No, I cannot think of an architect that participated.  It was fun looking at everyone's efforts, though.

Another contest could be fun, but who has enough time to organize this whole thing, and what is the motivation???  maybe give 'em a free gca.com golf bag!!!

[Kirk Gill]

Practice does make you better.  I am a lot more practiced at what I'm doing than I was when I started High Pointe.  I know how to get stuff built better, and I have guys to help who have learned what I'm trying to do over several years.  I don't know if my ideas on routing or shot values are any better than they were 15 years ago, but I'm way better at getting them into the ground -- and I had 4 years of experience with Pete Dye before trying it on my own.

Mr. Doak - what do you think High Pointe would be like if, instead of moving on to your next project, you'd stayed there, lived there, been on that course every day making changes and tweaks as they presented themselves to your experience and imagination? Not as the first step of a profession, but as a lifetime obsession?

[Forrest Richardson]

Kirk — Tom D. nee to answer for HP...but, in general you are asking whether the Oakmont or Cypress Point model might be better. My feeling is that it always takes people. Quite simply, it is talent, determination and a great site that makes or breaks golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Kirk:

Well I don't own High Pointe, so those changes wouldn't have been mine to make any more than they are now.

Do you mean what if I were born rich?

If I had the opportunity to just stay at High Pointe, I'm sure that for the first few years all I would have done was to preserve the original design as jealously as I could -- taking out the pine trees on the back nine before they overtook the ferns, replanting some orchard trees in good places on the front, that sort of stuff.  Perhaps I would have kept at the bunkering and honed my skills, although I don't know if I ever would have gotten as good at it myself as some of my associates have gotten through their own practice.  It probably would have taken me several years before I started really thinking about changes.

You could be right that if confined to one course you would just keep working at perfecting it for the lack of something else to do, and it would be much improved over time.  Or possibly not!  I still think Crooked Stick was better in the 1970's than after Pete Dye started tinkering, though others disagree.  But, personally, I'm glad that I have had multiple chances to build golf courses.

[Kirk Gill]

But, personally, I'm glad that I have had multiple chances to build golf courses.

Well, all of us are, too!

And in a way, yes, I guess I'm asking about being born rich, or just lucking into the right situation. I doubt that any of us armchair archies could make a CAREER out of designing golf courses, absent years of apprenticeship and learning (and messy details like being loaded with as-yet-unrecognized talent). I was just trying to think of a model where an amateur architect-wanna-be might actually create a course of some merit, and the only one that came to mind is the "passionately live with one course over one's lifetime" model.................