Golf Course Architects-$$$$$$

[Ian Andrew]

If your goal is to spend the club's money as wisely as possible, how or why would either side tie themselves to a percentage fee.

Me: Lump sum for all planning work and an hourly fee (or negotiated lump sum) for most of the rest.

Most of us "unknowns" make our money in small amounts over a series of regular clients. we work when needed and never know how much each month will bring. That's the reality for the unknown majority in this business.

I also think your all to caught up in fees. Fees are only what you charge and the client is willing to pay. Work defines an architect, not fees.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

Unknown? You're the golf architect blogger. Far from "unknown", my friend  

[paul cowley]

..... all of this comes back to the fact that you are only really worth what somebody is willing to pay you......and its only afterwards that you can question how much was left on the table......and from that you can plan your future course.

[Ian Andrew]

John,

I have the highest fee in all of golf architecture. It's $37, 000,000.00 + expenses..........but I'll negotiate down for the right project.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

Yeah, but in some ways, fees define the work an architect gets.  If you keep selling yourself on small fees, those are the kind of clients you get.  If you sell on quality, but quality takes time, you will lose more jobs, but the ones you get will allow your talents to shine through.  And, once they pay a reasonable fee, they seem to value the advice you give a bit more.  A low cost architect is often a pushed around architect.

Most of us have early projects we regret, as we were selected only on low fee, and construction budget matched.  The problem is getting out of that rut, esp. when you do have repeat clients over the long term.  They remember when a master plan or green plan cost "X" when you gave them the "I'm just starting" deal.  I still have to give some of my early clients big discounts compared to new work.  My only consolation is, that in talking to some of the biggest names in the biz at ASGCA, I find they have the same type of problems.....even if the decimal place is different!

[Mike_Young]

Ian,

Yeah, but in some ways, fees define the work an architect gets.  If you keep selling yourself on small fees, those are the kind of clients you get.  If you sell on quality, but quality takes time, you will lose more jobs, but the ones you get will allow your talents to shine through.  And, once they pay a reasonable fee, they seem to value the advice you give a bit more.  A low cost architect is often a pushed around architect.

Most of us have early projects we regret, as we were selected only on low fee, and construction budget matched.  The problem is getting out of that rut, esp. when you do have repeat clients over the long term.  They remember when a master plan or green plan cost "X" when you gave them the "I'm just starting" deal.  I still have to give some of my early clients big discounts compared to new work.  My only consolation is, that in talking to some of the biggest names in the biz at ASGCA, I find they have the same type of problems.....even if the decimal place is different!

Jeff,
I have had two clients that allowed me to work for them on a second project....if they did 10 I would never go up on them.....
And as you say....re early projects....an architect in this area that has gotten several national projects told me 15 years ago that the most critical part of this business was getting past your bad job/s when you begin...
Mike

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

I don't agree with your premise at all.

I'm a renovation guy, so the fees are naturally smaller because so is the scale of my projects. A new course will bring in more fees because of the larger commitment required. But since I need a new "solo" job to prove what I can do, my first project will be fairly cheap compared to what you and others on here charge.

I charge what I do based solely upon what I need to make a comfortable living. I could raise my fees, I know I make less than my American competitors, but to what end. I'm happy with what I make.

I don't have your issue with old clients because I've moved my fees up with every client each time there was a change. I charge everybody the exact same rate.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ian,

Have you considered charging what you are worth for a new project?
If you are making a comfortable living - super to hear of your progress - why not wait for a good fitting project with an appropriate fee?
I’ll bet that if a client is only willing to pay you $___k, that you will be hampered in what you can create as well.

Cheers

[Ian Andrew]

Mike,

I don't like professional athletes earning what they do - and that's all about taking as much as they can get. I get paid what I ask if the market will bear that price. We all ask what we feel is appropriate.

I need a new project, not to generate fees, but deep down inside I have to build "one" course (without Doug) to prove that all the time I "still" spend learning and studying holes will make for something special. I really believe that in my heart I have that, and "getting paid" does not matter compared to putting it in the ground once.

Someone will get a bargain when they work with me, because I have a lot to prove. I have a minimum price I will work for, and you are right I am waiting for the right project, because I have a lot on the line personally.

Warren Buffet was asked recently to define success: there was no mention of money. That isn't because he has tons of it, but because he has long realized there is more to life than money. He did mention the key to life is enjoying what you do.

[Ian Andrew]

After all I have my own hockey team, what more could I want.....

[Mark Chaplin]

Would an Architect bid low on a project with the perfect land the success of which could result in their legacy to the game?

An example would be the proposed Trump development near Aberdeen......if that superb piece of land was being developed by the local council with a view to producing the highest quality community course & possible Open venue would you be tempted to bid to get the contact even if it lowered the profit margins?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

It happens every day.  Everybody's fee is negotiable in the right circumstances; I don't know of a single exception.

And, by the way, Donald Trump expects a discount on design fees for the privilege of working alongside him, even as he's telling everyone else how much money will be made in the deal.

[Jon Wiggett]

Most designers' contracts are "plus expenses"; my contract at High Pointe provided housing but that's all.

Tom,

did you get to keep the house? The GCA I worked for between 2001 and 2005 did a job where he shaped a course and got to sleep in an on site barn. He still has the squating rights there but first he must evict the fairway mower.

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:

The house was across the street from the 9th fairway at High Pointe, but for some reason, they knocked it down a few years ago.