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Doug Ralston

Graham Marsh
« on: November 09, 2006, 05:57:09 PM »
"We don't know why Graham Marsh decided to build his 1st American course in Eastern Kentucky; but we are sure glad here did!"

Old Silo, in Mt Sterling, Kentucky, is the only course by Graham Marsh I have played. I would like to know if any of you have played any of his courses? I would search for them but, as you know, golfcourse.com has been destroyed.

Old Silo is a very tough but extremely attractive course. It has 96 'signature' bunkers [all of his have multiple grass inlets, making tough lies more common, it seems]. It slopes 139 but must have been rated on a calm day. We played the GKL Meet there during a brisk blow and it was very tough. The layout is varied and though it stretches to over 7k, you will have to think your way around this one.

Here is some pix from GKL's website.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Old%20Silo%20Photo.html

If you even come Kentuckyward, this is a good stop! Let me know about any other Graham Marsh courses. Thanks.

Doug

David_Tepper

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2006, 06:15:11 PM »
Didn't Graham Marsh do the Sutton Bay course in South Dakota?

www.suttonbay.com
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 06:17:36 PM by David_Tepper »

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2006, 06:20:46 PM »
How is Sutton Bay doing financially?

Marty Bonnar

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2006, 06:22:24 PM »
'Swampy' is doing some bloody nice work...

http://www.gmgd.com.au/home.htm

I spoke with some of his design assocs at a trade show in Germany a couple of years ago. They were, as the Aussies might say, 'Damn good Blokes'!

FBD.

"Now that's a Knife..."
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2006, 06:32:02 PM »
We had a wonderful old links course called Miramar, next door to the Wellington airport. Around '92 the city snatched their 1st and 15th fairways for airport redevelopment, leaving the club with 7 million to play with but maybe only a little over a hundred acres left. They brought in Graham Marsh whose flagship course around that time was The Vines in Perth. Marsh left them with the absolute worst example of early-90s cookie cutter golf you could imagine. I remember Tom Doak writing "I wondered who the hell built all those mounds" after getting off a plane.

Marsh also had a major role in the "modernisation" of Cottesloe in Perth, where he is the favourite son. Since 1980 he and Michael Wolveridge have completely altered one of the four original Alex Russell 18 hole designs in Australia. A few miles away at Lake Karrinyup, Mike Clayton's team is stripping back the Wolveridge abuse on their Russell course.  

Glad Graham had those early sandboxes to play with and that you think he's improving. I'm sure Sutton Bay is very good. If you want a former Australian touring pro however, call Clayts.

Tim Pitner

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2006, 06:36:47 PM »
I didn't know Marsh was so prolific until I checked out the website courtesy of Martin's link.  What's funny is that I was about to post a question to find out what the Southern hemisphere contingent thought of Marsh's work in that part of the world.  Hux beat me to the punch.  

Are there any dissenting views?  Any Marsh courses in Australasia that are well-regarded?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 06:38:16 PM by Tim Pitner »

Marty Bonnar

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2006, 06:50:54 PM »
, call Clayts.

With all due respect, 'Hux' (BTW, maybe you need to pay attention to all that other chat about REAL NAMES) but if we are talking about Aussie touring Pros , there is only ONE name we need consider. Mr Michael Clayton, esq. can clearly hold no candle to the magnificence that is RADAR.

Ladies and Sheep-worriers, I give you Mr Wayne Riley... ;)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Rick Shefchik

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2006, 06:56:26 PM »
Sorry to hear that Marsh developed his chops by messing up a couple of Australian courses, but we've been the beneficiary here in duck country (Minnesota/Dakotas).

The first Graham Marsh course I played was Wild Marsh in Buffalo, Minnesota. It was a redo of a course I hadn't played before, and one of the better efforts I'd seen in the category of finding playable golf holes in and around a large wetland. Mostly I'm disappointed by courses where the DNR seemed to have as much to do with the routing as the architect, but Marsh created some memorable holes. Here are a few photos from the website:










It was fun to play, and four years later I remember almost every hole. That doesn't always happen on a course I've only played once.

As for Sutton Bay, there's not much I could add to what's already been said about it on other threads, except that I was seriously considering nominating it in that thread about the one course you'd choose if you could only play one course for the rest of your life. It's great.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 06:58:07 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Doug Ralston

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2006, 07:15:58 PM »
Thanks folks;

I didn't know Marsh had been so prolific either. I have heard of Sutton Bay here, usually in very good light. But did not remember if anyone had said whose work it was.

If you get to Kentucky, try Old Silo. You won't consider it a wasted day, I promise. I have just recalled that golfcleveland even has it on their list of 'short trip must plays' [5.5 hrs each way!]. It has some good pix too. here is the site.

http://www.golfclevelandohio.com/G2003-main.htm

Doug

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2006, 09:02:05 PM »
I am a member of a Graham Marsh layout here in Beijing -- Hua Tang Golf Club. It's a good course -- you wouldn't move to Beijing just to join it, but once you are here you can't do much better.

Hua Tang does have one good design and maintenance philosophy -- don't know whether it is a standard feature of Marsh's design philosophy or not. I would describe it ias "generous targets but big penalties". That is, the fairways are wide and there are definite strategic lines in play. However, if you miss the fairways and land in the rough or a bunker, you are generally screwed (bad lie, green blocked out etc). Similarly, the greens are generally big, but also multi tiered (even a mini biarritz) and nastily bunkered. So plenty of green to hit but you're in a tough spot if you miss.

I like this for member play -- minimises lost balls, keeps play moving, plenty of chances to hit decent shots for the mid and high capper (which is what most of the membership is) creates "easy-ish" bogies but pars and birdies tend to be hard won, presents lots of options for hole locations, which in turn affects where your tee shot should be, and so on.

This is not such a common thing to see in Asia where a lot of the flash design is of the "penal resort" style -- narrow fairways, lush rough, island greens, water hazards etc. Actually it is what I call "bondage mistress" design -- looks attractive but painful to play ...

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2006, 09:24:27 PM »
"We don't know why Graham Marsh decided to build his 1st American course in Eastern Kentucky; but we are sure glad here did!"

Old Silo, in Mt Sterling, Kentucky, is the only course by Graham Marsh I have played. I would like to know if any of you have played any of his courses? I would search for them but, as you know, golfcourse.com has been destroyed.

Old Silo is a very tough but extremely attractive course. It has 96 'signature' bunkers [all of his have multiple grass inlets, making tough lies more common, it seems]. It slopes 139 but must have been rated on a calm day. We played the GKL Meet there during a brisk blow and it was very tough. The layout is varied and though it stretches to over 7k, you will have to think your way around this one.

Here is some pix from GKL's website.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Old%20Silo%20Photo.html

If you even come Kentuckyward, this is a good stop! Let me know about any other Graham Marsh courses. Thanks.

Doug

Doug,

How was the condition of the course?  I hope they have recovered fully, but I was out there on 8/4/2005 and I felt very bad for the super.  They had received several straight days of rain, enough to leave standing water all over the course followed by several straight days of near 100 temperature, and the standing water just cooked the grass.

I have never seen anything like it, I mean large expanses of what was at one time very good turf, was just cooked dead.  I enjoyed the layout, there were some great holes out there, but I wondered how long it would take them to completely recover from such a catastrophic turf incident.  I wonder if they resodded large areas, reseeded, or how they recovered?

Let us know.

I will have to go back and see if I can put my hands on my pictures from that day if anyone is interesed let me know.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Doug Ralston

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2006, 09:46:29 PM »
Turboe;

The conditions were excellent at out outing. I had actually heard they had had some flooding problems, but everything was very grown in when we played.

I should say, the wind conditions were rough. Try playing that layout in 25 mph winds ..... whew. I hit a 7-wood to a 170 yd par-3 [#12], so I could keep it low. But though it started low, it rose like a balloon and ended up 15yd short. On the other hand, play #18 with the wind at my back, my usual 200yd drive went about 250yd. I would gladly have traded those 50 yds for the 15yd earlier though  :D. A great fun course to play in the wind, as long as you are not concerned with your score.

BTW, I had some serious struggle against those marsh bunkers. The blessed grass inlets kept giving me horrible lies, which I was lucky to simply get out sideways from.

Anyway, as i said, we certainly are glad Graham Marsh chose Kentucky.

Doug

PS: Any pix would be cool.

Dan Kelly

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2006, 12:19:26 AM »
Sorry to hear that Marsh developed his chops by messing up a couple of Australian courses, but we've been the beneficiary here in duck country (Minnesota/Dakotas).

... As for Sutton Bay, there's not much I could add to what's already been said about it on other threads, except that I was seriously considering nominating it in that thread about the one course you'd choose if you could only play one course for the rest of your life. It's great.

I don't feel qualified to say whether Sutton Bay is great.

I do feel qualified to say that it's wonderful, and I love it, and I'd be perfectly happy to play it over and over and over and over again -- forsaking all others!

(One thing, though, Rick: Those aren't *ducks*, buddy. They're pheasants! And the South Dakotans will thank you kindly never to make that mistake again!)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Andrew Summerell

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2006, 04:40:14 AM »
Marsh has just had a housing estate course open here in Sydney called Twin Creeks, which is playable, but not anything special.

Much of his early work was done in partnership with Ross Watson, who now has his own company.

His American courses seem to be of higher standard than his Australian & New Zealand work, but that may have a lot to do with the land. Most of the land he has had to work with here in Australia has been pretty ordinary to say the least.

Andrew Thomson

Re:Graham Marsh
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2006, 08:27:56 AM »
he has built some complete junk here in Australia, but mostly for residential projects on swamp land.

the only course in he has built recently in Australia that I have enjoyed was a place called Growling Frog, but its no classic either.

There's one called North Lakes in Brisbane that has to be seen to be believed, horriffic.

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