[Bob_Huntley]

I was watching the telecast from the Disney and there was repeated reference to grain.

Growing up in Africa, where grain on the greens was the usual condition, reminds me of the Snead-Locke series arranged by the CEO of Wilson Sporting Goods, the sponsor of Sam Sead.

This was sometime at the end of 1946 I believe. Snead had just won The Open Championship at St. Andrews.

Locke won twelve of the fifteen exhibition matches and Snead graciously admitted that Locke's knowlege of playing grainy greens was the difference between victory and defeat.

Snead then told Locke he could make a fortune playing in the US., which, in 1947 he did.

Peter Allis mentioned in the broadcast that just about every South African player was a better putter because of their experience on difficult grainy greens.  


Bob

[wsmorrison]

Bob,

I love the added challenge of grain on greens.  Merion and Huntingdon Valley are local courses that require you to take grain into account.  At Merion, it is best to calculate the added effect of grain--it all moves towards the 11th green.

I think I'm correct about this; the out-of-the-box thinking superintendent at Huntingdon Valley CC, Scott Anderson, believes that gravity and then the direction of the sun has the most influence on the direction of grain.


The grain can be readily seen in this photo of the 15th green at HVCC:

[Bob_Huntley]

Wayne,

In Southern Africa it was the setting sun that caused the condition.

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

Wayne,

There is GRAIN and there is grain.  The one you are talking about on bent greens is but a little nuisance or even fun for some.  The type Bob Huntley experienced in South Africa and Rhodesia is a totally different proposition.

When I first moved to Texas from Ohio, I adjusted to the wind without too much trouble.   30 years later, my putting stroke still hasn't recovered.  Common bermuda, 328, and tifdwarf can have so much grain that well struck putts break with a mind of their own.  One can hit 10 putts from the same farily level spot and get a near equal number of left, right, and no break.

The long, smooth pendulum stroke which seems to work so well on bent, doesn't on the old bermuda.  Most good bermuda putters I've known actually punch or stab the ball.  It is more of a pop than slow back and through.  I don't understand how Crenshaw developed his stroke on bermuda greens in the Austin area.  In Ohio I was an excellent putter.  Since putting mainly on bermuda and poor bent, I am average or worse as Tom Huckaby can attest.    

[Bob_Huntley]

Lou,

You are right, the Locke stroke which was so effective was an exact copy of Walter Hagens pop stroke and in later years that of Billy Casper.

Bob

[Mark_Fine]

I believe that grain on a tightly cut bent grass green is all but non existent.  It is also the nature of how that grass grows.  Play down south on bermuda and you will see grain    A putt can roll out 20 feet down grain and only 6 feet into it.  Putts will start to snake and bounce as well when there is grain on a green.  Poa can cause this as well but I'm not sure I'd call that grain.  Grain follows the sun!  If the surface looks "dull" you are looking into the grain.  If it looks shiny you are looking with the grain.  

[Jim Nugent]

When greens get faster, does the effect of the grain get smaller, and eventually disappear?  If so, about what speed is that on the stimpmeter?

[wsmorrison]

Thanks for showing me grain beyond that of my experience on bent grass greens.  

"I believe that grain on a tightly cut bent grass green is all but non existent."

I think it is pretty clear that there are efforts to minimize and eradicate grain on bent grass greens.  It is real at Merion and at Huntingdon Valley.  The golfing experience is enhanced with its presence as it is another factor in the decision making tree on the greens.  This additional factor helps to identify the cerebral golfer that can recognize and execute with an additional consideration.  I'm all for that and would encourage the acceptance of grain in certain club cultures that might be predisposed to embracing it.  

[Gary Slatter]

I agree that gravity, the setting sun, lack of top-dressing and too much grass affect grain on bermuda.

[RDecker]

At most clubs with bent grass greens the height of cut is typically 1/8 of an inch or lower and with frequent topdressing, vertical mowing, brushing... grain is all but non existant.  However the way that water drains off of a push up, native soil green can effect growth habit and create a "grain like" effect.  On modern USGA greens the drainage is mostly downward and you wouldn't see much of that.  Also a large body of water in proximity has been known to cause that same type of effect, almost giving plants a grainyness.
The new bent varieties are specifically developed to grow upright and eliminate grain,  Most clubs have been converting to them for at least 5 or 6 years now, the A series, G series and L 93...

[David_Tepper]

If I recall correctly, Tom Watson never won a tournament on the PGA Tour held in Florida, which is attributed primarily to the difficulty he had putting on Bermuda greens. Since he won 5 British Opens, it certainly was not due to any problems playing in the wind!

[Brian Phillips]

Bob,

I had this discussion with Wayne this year while we were playing Merion.  He reminded me to remember to take into account the grain on the greens.  I smirked and said there is no grain on bent grass or it is soooo little that there is really no need to even think about it at our standard.

However, the grain you guys get in Africa is just ridiculous and not only you do need to be a good putter but you need to be able to read the grain.

As RDecker says, creeping bent just does not have grain and will say it again Wayne....concentrate on the line and your putting will get better...and then you might win more than one match next time I come across...

There is even less grain when greens are double cut at two different angles, one of the reasons it was introduced in tournament set ups.

Brian

[Brian Phillips]

Thanks for showing me grain beyond that of my experience on bent grass greens.  

"I believe that grain on a tightly cut bent grass green is all but non existent."

I think it is pretty clear that there are efforts to minimize and eradicate grain on bent grass greens.  It is real at Merion and at Huntingdon Valley.  The golfing experience is enhanced with its presence as it is another factor in the decision making tree on the greens.  This additional factor helps to identify the cerebral golfer that can recognize and execute with an additional consideration.  I'm all for that and would encourage the acceptance of grain in certain club cultures that might be predisposed to embracing it.  

Wayne,

You are in la la land...

I have now played there twice this year (kicked your butt one time) and played there a few years ago.....the grain you are seeing is in your gray matter...

[wsmorrison]

You agreeing with Mark Fine automatically puts you on shaky ground.  Why do putts at Merion all seem to have additional break towards the 11th green?  Why do putts from front to back on so many greens  exhibit the effects of grain and are quicker than you would think?  These greens are considerably less than 1/8".  Why does the Superintendent at Huntingdon Valley cite the grain on his greens as a significant factor?  There are a number of greens at Merion with a general back to front slope that run faster than expected front to back and putts down the slope back to front slower than you think?  Side to side putts have less break as well.  This is evident on every green.  Please explain.  

Next time you get back here, you're gonna lose some beer money my friend.  I figured out where my pulled irons were coming from and I am putting like a champ.  No more injuries either.  You're in a heap of trouble even if you bring your A game.  I had my D game and beat you 1 out of 3.  That book you gave me in my desperate days is no longer required.  It will be a clear USA victory and a UK/Norway Defeat (with a capital D)

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
If you call that grain at Merion, you haven't ever putted on Bermuda grass    I just played Merion a week or so ago and there was no grain to speak of on those greens (not when they are rolling at 11 or so).  The complexity of the slopes is what golfers need to worry about.  

[wsmorrison]

It may not be the overt grain seen on Bermuda greens (I don't have much experience), there is however grain none-the-less at Merion and Huntingdon Valley.  Do you think Scott Anderson wouldn't recognize it when he sees it?  

I was lucky enough to play at Merion today and there is definitely grain.  I think it takes a long time to recognize grain in Bent greens.  After a time, many rounds actually, you begin to see the effects of the grain.  However, you are absolutely right the subtle complexities of slopes is of primary importance in successfully putting on those greens and all Flynn greens for that matter.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Don't get me wrong, bent greens can have grain (relatively speaking).  I guess my point it that compared to what you can find on Bermuda grass, it is not worth worrying about.  Where as, if you don't understand grain when playing on Bermuda, you can look down right foolish (or just look like a terrible putter).  If there was grain the other day when I was at Merion, I did not notice it, nor did my caddie.  We made a lot of putts including birdies on #8, #11, #13 and #18 so maybe I was just putting well.  I was above the hole on #16 with the pin on the upper level and noticed the putt was slower than it looked but I attributed that to clever green contour.  As you well know, there is some great deception on those greens and you have to read the contour correctly to putt them well.  

If you rub your hand lightly across the top of the grass, you can feel the direction of the blades (just don't do it in a match as it is against the rules of golf).  If the blades feel smooth, you are rubbing "with the grain".  It they feel rough, you are rubbing against the grain.  It is very hard to feel anything on most bent grasses.  It is also very hard to see the dull or shiny surfaces.  On Bermuda, these things are often very obvious.  

[JESII]

I wonder if anyone that never actually played them can imagine how grainy bermuda greens were 60 years ago, in Africa or the U.S.. The grain found today in the muni circuit of South Florida probably doesn't hold a candle.

That being said, and moving the conversation to today, the focus has been on removing all evidence of grain on bent grass greens for a number of years. From my conversations with a couple people that seemingly would know I think blade length can[/i] correspond to root depth, which should then correspond to plant strength, which should then correspond to viability in drought conditions. Assuming this is correct to some degree it would seem that grainy greens (even if it's only a little grainy) should help enable the greens to play firmer here in the Northeastern USA.

For those that have not played there (Brian Phillips), check out Huntingdon Valley at your next opportunity. The grain program there produces a green surface that will compete well (on the grain strength argument) with any of the higher end clubs in Florida. The picture Wayne posted shows the different colors (Mark Fine; take another look, this time with your eyes open). One thing I can tell you is that every bit of grain on these greens goes downhill, the sun has absolutely nothing to do with it. This is good and bad if you ask me.

The challenge of reading grain that goes uphill, cross hill and switches a few times in the course of a 30 foot putt is high, but I see that as comparable to dealing with winds that effect the ball two or three different ways while it is in the air. It increases the challenge, sure, but does it improve it? I'm not sure.

I have not played Merion in 7 or 8 years, but do not remember a substantial grain at that time. I think the current superintendent (who my have just started when I was last there) is more in favor of this approach, but at a high profile club it might be more difficult because the trade-off is a perceived lesser quality surface due to the occassional bounce when putting into the grain. If a green can be kept equally firm without grain as HVCC's are with grain, I would probably choose no grain but to my knowledge that is not the case. As such I would choose firm and grainy greens.

[Steve Lang]

 

Gravity then sun.. nice way to put it,.. but generalizing only goes so far, as noted for long puts..

The first thing I've found one has to do on bermuda greens is walk by the hole and/or while doing pin duty, check how the hole cut shows the grain growing.. because this is where most heartbreak occurs..

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lou, I am with you except the grain I find on burmuda greens is somewhat consistant on the same putt stroke after stroke. However it can vary across different parts of the green. Ours grows toward the swamp or major water bodies. Many places in the south, it does grow toward the southwest or western sun. I felt I have a smooth putting stroke. When you and Bob described the grain putting stroke, I do on exceptionally grainy greens  need to adjust to a strong jap or punch stroke to create the aggresive top spins one need to overcome the effects of the grain.

[JESII]

Tiger,

I was not aware that the Japanese were so much better able to put "aggressive top spin" on their putts. Does that explain the funny hat Shingo Katayama wears?

Just pulling your leg on a tyop from prior post. I tried to do it without a censor eligible post.  



Seriously, do people think it's easier to go from bent to bermuda of vice versa?

[Brian Phillips]

Jim,

Of course you can get grain on a Creeping Bent green but only if the height of cut is raised from that is the norm...

If a Course Manager wants to chance his career by raising the cut on a very expensive USGA built green and seeded with very expensive A4 seed then good luck to him or her.

I would not take that chance..

I still do not think there is enough grain on the Merion greens to be taken notice of....Wayne can you not have a round with him next year to get a real expert's opinion...

Brian

[wsmorrison]

I'll go ask Matt Shaffer (director of golf course operations at Merion) what he thinks of the subject.  I'll also ask Scott Anderson (HVCC), Mike McNulty (Phila Country) and John Gosselin (Aronimink) for their thoughts.

[Gary Slatter]

Tiger,

I was not aware that the Japanese were so much better able to put "aggressive top spin" on their putts. Does that explain the funny hat Shingo Katayama wears?

Just pulling your leg on a tyop from prior post. I tried to do it without a censor eligible post.  



Seriously, do people think it's easier to go from bent to bermuda of vice versa?
]I find going from bermuda to bent you putt great for around two weeks, going from bent to bermuda you need a good local player with you

[Jason Topp]

One question related to this topic - why is there not much grain in Sandbelt greens, which I believe are bermuda, compared to Suth Africa or the Southeastern US?

It is definitely easier to go from Bermuda to bent.

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