[Jeff_Brauer]

One of the axioms of gca is that each hole should be clearly remembered after a round, that it should stand out in some way from the other 17.  I am not talking standing out in the negative sense - i.e, one rebuilt green not matching the others, but in the positive sense of a hole being memorable within the other holes and/or to a lesser degree, memorable among holes on other courses.

For you, which course has the most distinct set (or variety) of holes?

What kind of features make them so?    

From comments I have recieved re: my own designs, I would have to say that holes that stand out are extremely:

1. difficult
2. unusual
3. beautiful

are the ones that seem to do that, in approximately in that order.  Case in point, at Fortune Bay, which is blessed with some natural lake front holes, rock outcroppings and beautiful timber, I was interviewed by the radio show "Where to play golf America" and the only hole they wanted to talk about was the fifth - with its unusal Biaritz green.

For better players, the difficult seem to spring more quickly to mind, while for average players, the unusual or beautiful seem to come to the forefront, generally speaking.

While I try hard to design constrasting features, like small greens followed by big greens, narrow fw followed by wide ones, lots of bunkers followed by a bunkerless hole, I can't recall anyone mentioning sequencing as a factor, although I would think it would be important.

For me as a golfer (since I can't completely separate the architect out) its little unique features that stand out for me.  For example, when I played Hazeltine last month, the ninth green had the pin in a narrow valley on the right side of the green - a feature I had never seen quite like that before.  Many of the other holes ran together, despite nice lake frontage, nice settings, and a few other well contoured greens.

However, I can only recall a few features - unless its really, really bold - being commented on (unless in the negative sense) Just as in politics, people seem to comment much more often on the things they don't like!

[Paul Payne]

I like all of your three criteria but what really makes a hole stand out for me is one that makes me think. I love a hole that forces me to think through my options as often as possible.

A hole that plays straight away can be as challenging as any but does not often communicate that to a golfer the first time off the tee. Sometimes you have to play a few times to understand the nuance of a hole. On the other hand, a small bluff at the inside bend of a doglegged hole can cause a player to decide if he tries to carry it or play out to the other side a bit, knowing that if he hits the bluff the kick could take distance off or put him on the far side or worse.

It is for this same reason I tend to like greens that are well protected but also have some way to get at them both from the ground and the air. This not only opens up more choices but offers alternative shots depending on wind and weather. Aerial approach greens are fun but in a 40 mile per hour wind they don't offer much in the way of good choices.

The ideal hole for me can combine subtleties that I can come to understand better over the long term along with challenges I can understand with relative ease the first time off the tee. If it is beautiful and unusual that is just icing on the cake.

Before anyone says anything..... yes I still love a blind shot.




 

[Paul Payne]

By the way Jeff,

I have played Hazeltine a number of times and I still could not play all 18 in my mind. For some reason many of the holes there a good but just don't stand out for me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

I agree with you, but I guess since I get my comments on or near opening days, the idea of subtle strategies doesn't register in the comments.  If anything, I have players comment on holes with difficult choices negatively.  They seem to think they all ought to lay out like a road map, telling - and helping - them do the easiest thing possible.

I do recall the holes that make you step back before hitting, saying "do I really want to do this?".  Mostly, thats the heroic or sucker punch type hole.

[Paul Payne]

Jeff,

I think I begin to get the dilema.

When it comes to understanding a hole from the tee there are roadmaps and then there are roadmaps. Some holes that may be more penal from the tee are sort of "in your face" clear as to what the options are. Typically these holes are dressed with more severe hazards whether bunkers, water, forced carries etc.

I tend to prefer the types of challenges that are not quite so obvious. A short landing area that is level, while the further landing zone begins to slope to the outer edge of a bend. These kinds of things can also usually be seen from the tee but just aren't as obvious.

My personal opinion is that more severe hazards should be used to accentuate or enhance the subtle features, even directing your eye towards or away from them. I think many modern courses rely to much soley on bunkers and water etc. to create the challenges.

My problem with this is not the possible opening day complaints about difficulty that you describe. My problem is that over time these types of courses don't offer much in variety. They pretty much play the 30th time as they did the first. I think this can become boring and also (like a video game) if you are able to unlock the secret to pass a certain stage, then there you go. You will more than likely be able to pass through every time afterwards.

I guess the dilema is how do you get people to see challenges other than bunkers and water when they view a hole?

I don't know art but I know what I like.

[Patrick Kiser]

Difficult, unusual and beautiful certainly.

But for me it has to be the intrigue aspect.  You walk away feeling and thinking "I would replay this way or that way".  So I think the mental challenge / strategy is what makes a great course for me over any other factor.  You can still walk away from your round with a poor score, but there's a grin on your face... because you want to come back for more.  To figure it out.

Then throw in the pin placement changes (and wind variations) ... and you create a whole new dynamic.

It seems increasingly rare to see a course that makes you feel this way.  To then think of a course with 18 times feeling that way...  So that's where the sequencing does come in to play, and that's when it hits you that this is a great course.  From one hole to the next the same feeling keeps coming up.

One of my most memorable course?

Black Mesa in NM
- Constant elevation changes
- Wind
- Multi tiered greens with challenging pin placements
- Challenging hazards
- Variety and fluidity
- No OB's anywhere - opportunity for the recovery shot
- No homes to ruin the landscape

And yes...

- Unusual
- Beautiful and panoramic

On every single hole no less!

I immediately walked away thinking I would love a second chance to play it again.

[Phil McDade]

Jeff:

Good question; I often tend to remember one or two outstanding holes from a course, and those are the ones I often highlight in discussing them or look forward to playing the course again.

For me, what makes a hole stand out is a sense that I want to play it again, right away, and not move on to the rest of the course. The 5th at Machrihanish -- Punch Bowl -- was like that for me; to this day, the coolest hole I've ever played. Or, you get a strong sense on the tee of "this is truly special," and each step of the way in playing the hole reveals something unique or outstanding -- that the entirety of the hole (not just the tee shot, or the approach, or a unique/challenging green complex) stands out. The 6th at Lawsonia comes to mind -- a challenging tee shot that requires some thought, a beautifully framed approach, a marvelous green, with a lot of visual appeal throughout.

[Dan Kelly]

I guess since I get my comments on or near opening days, the idea of subtle strategies doesn't register in the comments.  If anything, I have players comment on holes with difficult choices negatively.  They seem to think they all ought to lay out like a road map, telling - and helping - them do the easiest thing possible.

Jeff --

I've been so busy researching the history of Stewart Sandwiches that I haven't had time for this thread till now.

In regard to your comment above (and your difficult/unusual/beautiful comments earlier in the thread):

Really?

Have you ever had a hole that has inspired more talk (all of it favorable, so far as I know) than The Quarry 13? That's one of the ultimate non-road-map holes.

Why do people talk about The Quarry 13? Not because it's so beautiful, or so difficult. They talk about it because it's -- in the experience of most people on most public courses -- so unusual. And why is it so unusual? Because the design, particularly that little mid-fairway bunker, demands *interesting* thought at the tee box every time you play it (not just the standard "What club am I gonna hit?," but something along the lines of "What in the hell am I trying to accomplish here?") ... and because the hole demands some precision in execution on every shot ... and because the required precision is within the reach (albeit often beyond the grasp) of most players who have any business playing that course.

Most holes don't offer any of that.

Any hole that offers all of it will stand out on any course anywhere.

As for me:

Difficulty almost never makes a hole stand out. (Maybe I'm just not a good enough player.)

Unusualness and beauty do -- particularly in combination. Though I'd change "beauty" to "setting" -- how a hole fits the place where it is. A hole needn't be "beautiful" to have a very satisfying "setting" (viz., The Quarry Nos. 2 and 9, as well as No. 13).

Dan

P.S. Next time you're in town to play Hazeltine, don't be so shy!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

I was booked solid, or I would have called.

The 13th does get the most attention.  It is unusual in both look and play.  When I played it with Brad K he commented before he even got to the tee and earlier, Ron W had his camera out before the cart stopped moving, suggesting something about the visuals on that hole makes it the clear favorite.  And while your strategic choice is a head scratcher, I feel the options/consequences are not - just whether you can make the required shot, which does create uncertainty, but perhaps of the right kind.  I guess not everyone needs every shot laid out every time - but most want the roadmap most of the time!

[TEPaul]

Fishers Island's holes all stood out to me as did Pine Valley's.

I think the reason is they are not only different and pretty unique one from the other on their golf courses but they are all pretty unique period.  

I should throw in NGLA too.

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