Pin positions

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I was walking Royal Liverpool in the company of a member of their Championship Committee yesterday.  He remarked that the R&A chose some interesting and unusual pin positions during the Open Championship.  He was not criticising, but praising them for their boldness and the extra dimension that this boldness brought to the play.

It might have been at the Ryder Cup or at coverage of the event at The Grove, but one of the commentators (Ronan Rafferty or Ken Brown) remarked that pin positions today were often much closer to the edge, back or front of a green than in his day.

Given the back-spin that modern professionals achieve, is this rendering a pin position at the rear of an elevated green impregnable?  Is a pin position at the front of a green with a green-front bunker almost as dangerous?

Forgive me if I repeat something I have probably said before. On the Sunday of this year's Open we sat in a stand overlooking the 14th green.  The pin was half way down on the right with a big drop into a deep hollow on the right.  Those players who managed to hit the green and stay on the putting surface were invariably on the left, facing a long putt across the green.  Anyone going for the flag either fell into the depression or went through the back of the green.  As the leaders approached only one player managed to land the ball on the upslope on the front of the green and feed it down to the hole - Ernie Els.  He got a very rare birdie.  Until the last man, that is.  Tiger, playing an iron from the tee, was probably 180 yards from the hole, uphill.  He hit his iron shot high, landing it halfway between the green front and the flag.  Anyone else landing there before him had finished far off the green.  Tiger's ball just sat down incredibly softly, ran perhaps 10 feet and stopped a couple of feet from the hole.  It was one of the greatest shots I have ever witnessed, quite breathtaking.  But it showed the genius of the R&A in placing the hole there.  It identified the best player without a doubt.

Are they being more adventurous in their pin positions, or are we viewing the old days through dirty glasses?

[Pete Lavallee]

Mark,

The days of 6 easy, 6 medium and 6 hard pin locations are long gone. Faced with the dilemma that lengthening the course does not stop today's players, armed with today's equipement, from going well below par, the only recourse is for the Organizing Committee to find more difficult pin placements. In the US, they are now routinely a few paces from the edge of the green. Ones in the interior are surely protected by ridges or swales as you decribed at Hoylake's 14th.

I played in the San Diego City Amateur at Torrey Pines South and utilizing the toughest pin placements taken from the Buick Invitational the course was brutal for mere mortals. So the current method of placement is efffective; it clearly adds several shots to the course without resorting to constructing ever longer teeing grounds.

[JohnV]

I think that the tours, the USGA and other high level organizations have gotten much tougher with HOLE LOCATIONS than before.  Some of the ones at the US Mid-am this year were very nasty, even in the stroke play qualifying, which surprised me as they used to be very pace-of-play oriented.

On the other hand, I think that organizations that are running events that are for a slightly lower caliber of player should be very careful about setting the locations too difficult.  Pete's story of the San Diego City Am strikes me as going too far.  Even the tour doesn't use all the tough ones in one round.  There should always be a mix of some kind, although what was once Medium might now be Easy.

I believe that the ability to make birdies is as important as the ability to avoid bogies and at the level of most events, setting things up where nobody is making biridies is too much.  At an Open Championship, it probably makes sense on some holes.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Actually, the PGA tour does pretty much have 72 tough pin positions in play these days.  Due to weather conditions, etc. sometimes the toughest pins will end up early in the tournament.  The PGA tour made a move from 4 paces from green edges down to 3 paces.  1 yard can make a hell of a difference on potential pin positions.

[Ally Mcintosh]

mark, that shot you mention of tigers was my shot of the year... just as dimarco started closing in on him, woods pulled away with that exquisite approach to the hardest hole on the course... quite amazing really... great pin position too!

[Mark Pearce]

mark, that shot you mention of tigers was my shot of the year... just as dimarco started closing in on him, woods pulled away with that exquisite approach to the hardest hole on the course... quite amazing really... great pin position too!

Watching on TV and knowing the hole reasonably well, it struck me that Els, to an extent, got lucky with his shot in that it didn't roll into the hollow, from where par would have been next to impossible.  Woods' shot was, simply, unbelievable and is also my shot of the year, to stop the ball where he did, having played from 180 yards out, showed that he has control over the ball in a way no-one else currently does.

[David_Tepper]

Mark -

I agree with the comments above, that the pin positions on the PGA & Euro PGA Tours are MUCH tougher than they used to be. Sometimes, it seems like every pin is within two or three paces of the edge of a green.
 
The reality of the situation is that the pin positions have become the last line of defending the course against the pros. Clearly, length is no longer much of a factor.  

Like Nicklaus, Tiger's ability to hit his longer irons high and land them soft is another element in his arsenal that sets him apart from his peers. He has also gotten much better controlling the spin and flight of the ball with his wedges, which enables him to get his approach shots closer on the shorter holes.

DT

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Mark,

The pin chart of the first day of the US Open 2006  illustrates your point well !!

[Glenn Spencer]

I think that the tours, the USGA and other high level organizations have gotten much tougher with HOLE LOCATIONS than before.  Some of the ones at the US Mid-am this year were very nasty, even in the stroke play qualifying, which surprised me as they used to be very pace-of-play oriented.

On the other hand, I think that organizations that are running events that are for a slightly lower caliber of player should be very careful about setting the locations too difficult.  Pete's story of the San Diego City Am strikes me as going too far.  Even the tour doesn't use all the tough ones in one round.  There should always be a mix of some kind, although what was once Medium might now be Easy.

I believe that the ability to make birdies is as important as the ability to avoid bogies and at the level of most events, setting things up where nobody is making biridies is too much.  At an Open Championship, it probably makes sense on some holes.

I love this line!!! I can't make up my mind though. Is it or isn't it? I think I will agree, but what a thought. JVB, can the hole itself be counted on to ask you to make a birdie instead of the hole location?

[Adam Clayman]

Mark,
 There seems to be more manipulation with regard to pin positions inorder to create more excitment for the weekend. It seemed evident Saturday at the Ryder Cup. The Masters is now all about making sure the media highlights will show IMG's favorite sons as often as possible.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Having established that we can be more adventurous in our pin locations, what are the constricting factors against puting the hole 1 foot from the edge or on a big slope?

[Adam Clayman]

The tell tale cries (in your best whiney voice) of "unfair""unfair""unfair".

[Mark_Rowlinson]

John Chilver-Stainer,  Thanks for the wicked pin position map.  I have just seen your name in print.  Flicking through the courses of Switzerland in the R&A Golfer's Handbook your name jumped off the page - you remodelled Interlaken-Unterseen.  Any chance of any before and after pictures?

[JESII]

Having established that we can be more adventurous in our pin locations, what are the constricting factors against puting the hole 1 foot from the edge or on a big slope?

Mark,

What would be the point?

The hole location you referrenced at Hoylake clearly identified a difference between Tiger, Els and the rest of the pack. A hole location one foot from a greens edge or on a slope eliminates many facets of the game. Risks for missing the target on the wong side get out of balance with the rewards of hitting a great shot. On a steep slope (at todays speeds) all balls roll down the slope to a spot where a no risk shot could also end up. When trying to recover to a hole one foot from a greens edge, the risk of trying to get the ball right next to the hole far outweighs the reward when you could just chip or blast to 10 feet and take your chances. JMO.

[Glenn Spencer]

With the current state of the game, I am left wondering if there should be no such thing as an illegal pin.

[JESII]

Has it gotten that easy for you Glenn? If so, you ought to take that game on the road. Q-school is starting up some time soon, get that check down to Tour HQ and tee it up.

[Glenn Spencer]

No, not for me. I am still a hack, in fact, I am struggling more than I ever remember at the moment. Did my post insinuate that, that is what I meant. I meant the PGA Tour.

[JESII]

Why do we care so much if the Tour guys shoot 25 under par on a course you and I would struggle on? Why not evolve the course for our (yours and mine) enjoyment and challenge?

[Glenn Spencer]

For me, it is because I used to love watching golf on television, now it bores me to tears. I really don't care what they shoot, I am just sick of seeing 320 down the middle, 135 yard wedge 10 feet left of the right pin and made ten-footer.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Hallo Mark,

Thanks for your interest.

Interlaken was an interesting job - a course renovation instigated indirectly by a project for the renaturalisation of a Nature Reserve adjoining the golf course and the Lake of Thun. The Canton wanted to offer more oppurtunities for  “still-water fish” to breed in the lakeside areas by creating a network of creeks and ponds, including parts of the golf course.
The 44-year old Par 72 golf course of no particular architectural merit was due for an upgrade and  so a concept was developed where the “renaturalisation” of the fish areas and the renovation of the golf course could be maximised. After 4 years planning and 2 off season construction phases the “new” course was opened for play in August 2005.
I have some “before” pictures, but on prints in a basement somewhere - I’ll need to go searching. I haven’t got round to making “real” photos of the course illustrating the golf course architecture  (memo to self - take photos of Interlaken).

Here’s a couple of photos attached, taken by others, which capture some of the features.

Hole 12.
It’s hard to believe but about 900 trees were removed from the course to open views and relieve shade. In this picture at least 50 trees were felled. The greens feature an extended apron in front of the green about 15-20m long, for various reasons but especially to encourage “bump and run” approaches.



18th Hole from the Terrace
Unbelievably the original green was hidden behind a wall of trees and bushes with a kiddies playground where the pond is now.
The new 18th Green is at the end of a long Par 4, has a long apron at the front and the back end falls off slightly to a peninsular bordering directly on to a fish pond. The idea is the player who wants to attack a pin position at the back, with his second or third shot, is better off “running”  it in than trying an “up and under”. He could also try kicking it in from the mounds on the left - as seen from playing direction.




Thankfully the players like this green which also provides great entertainment from the new terrace.

Mine’s a beer.

[Tom_Doak]

I went around with Mike Davis to set the hole locations for the Curtis Cup, and I was very surprised how difficult they had decided to set it up ... there were a lot of hole locations in tough places to get to.  And then the girls went out in calm weather and made a lot of birdies anyway!  It was a real eye-opener for me.

[Kevin Pallier]

The abovementioned pins locations could have something to the quality of balls and technology these days could they not ? they are pretty much their last defence.

With the high degree wedges combined with soft high-spin balls players are able to get up and down from almost anywhere these days....