What makes a golf course difficult for the tour guys?

[T.J. Sturges]

Tom Doak,

In your second post on this thread, you wrote, "Unfortunately the answer to Ted's question is just where the tour is starting to go...narrower fairways, more trees, and more water in play."

Are you then saying that YOU think this is the way to make it harder for the tour guys?  

I would think that the scores shot at Medinah would prove that making the fairways narrow tree lined alleys for them to play down does not present them with any significant challenge.  

My own view on this is that your comment on slower greens with MORE contour is dead on.  In addition, I believe that adding wider playing corridors (with less for these guys to focus on) but with distinct advantages to which portion of the fairway you play your approach shot from, and strategically placed hazzards for missing the optimum approach area would be more difficult for the best players in the world.

Could you clarify your comments above?   ...and could you comment on my thoughts on this?

THX,

TS

[Adam Clayman]

Ted, Not sure if Tom needs to opine because he basically built everything described in this thread (for the better) in Holyoke, Co.

[Bill_Ryzewski]

Pete Dye.

[David Stamm]

How about seeing more Reef holes ala Tillie?

[wsmorrison]

"Flynn added ridges to sides which are easier to read and putt (to me); if water gets directed so do balls, but the  value of these kind of features is that the recovery shots are sometimes nearly impossible."

What do you mean by these Flynn ridges?  Which courses and what greens do you see such features used systematically?  Of course he used ridges, but I fail to see that they were often used on the sides making for easier reads and putts.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Whatever it is, just keep in mind, it is then unplayable for the rest of us.

And I don't think that! The Tour players can hit their balls wherever they want and never have to worry about finding them. They rarely get a bad lie. Even if they hit it over the clubhouse and the cook steals their ball, they get a free drop in pitch-distance from the green.

But who finds my balls? Who tramples down the rough for me? Nobody and that is why I can't recover (on my scale) and they can.

I once saw Ernie Els live and in deep shit. 50 patrons and scores of officials were searching for way more than 5 minutes and located his ball in hip-high rough. They trampled down most of it, but even then Ernie could only hit it 50 Yards and was still in the rough, far away from the green.

The way to decelerate Tour players is to make them pay like the rest of us. It doesn't do any good to narrow fairways, if they can still get a decent lie in the rough. But it will change the entire game, if they (and their caddie) have to look for their ball themselves and occasionally don't find it within 5 minutes.

Ulrich

[JESII]

But it will change the entire game, if they (and their caddie) have to look for their ball themselves and occasionally don't find it within 5 minutes.

Ulrich

Yeah, that will be devastating!

There's a great story from a nice club here in the Philadelphia section about a couple of young guys sitting at a table in the grill room. They happened to notice the course record board hanging on the wall and a score of about 62 from the 50's or 60's was still the record. One guy is heard saying to the other "yeah, well what's the big deal, back then the trees were only about this high (with arm raised out at shoulder height). Just by coincidence the old guy with that course record was sitting at the next table and fires over the retort "son, when you shhot 62 the trees don't much come into play".

[Ulrich Mayring]

More power to him! I don't think an occasional 62 hurts the game of Golf or our courses. But I was surprised at how often the Pros are off the fairway or in odd spots, when I saw my first Golf tournament live. You don't always see that on TV very well, because they show mostly the highlights.

Ulrich

[JESII]

The pros are great at all aspects of the game. I would suggest you overestimated their driving accuracy and underestimated their recovery and short game skills. Making the pros look for their own balls might add 1/100 of a stroke to their scoring average for the year. It's a start, lets come up with another 149 equivalent increases in difficulty and we've really got something.

[Dan Kelly]

Anything that will force/encourage them to play "the ground game."

And when they make THAT look ridiculously easy, at least it'll be fun watching them do it.

Other than that:

Lots of false fronts, backs and sides, with pins nearby.

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are only two ways.  Put the pin in the rough or in a bunker.  Let's see 'em putt then.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A little OT, but here is a course review of the Quarry at Giants Ridge that Tim Herron took the time to post on Golf Magazines website and ranking area:


"I am speaking as a winning PGA proffesional and let me tell you this course is flat out spectacular. Recently after I won the Bank of America my great grandmother died who lived near Hibbing Minnesota. I had heard such great things about this golf resort up near hibbing called Giants Ridge by my buddy Tom Lehman whos actually from minnesota. So i threw the clubs on the plane no suprise and played this course. I shot a 1 under 71 and boy was it one of the most fun i have had in ages. The speed slots and little querks to this course are truly one of a kind. In the PGA today everything is focused on length and power. With this course Measuring about 7200 which is long for most recreational players this would be slightly shorter than average on the PGA i was truley tested. I cant say enough about this course."

Sounds like at least he likes getting away from typical course setups on the Tour.  And, perhaps there are other ways to challenge golfers than narrow fairways, trees, and rough.

I am curious about the comment about how long it is - he must have seen the forward tees, or do good players focus that hard on the target area?

[Dan Kelly]

At least he spelled "flat out spectacular" right -- so The Quarry won't have to *fib* even a little on the brochure.

"Flat out spectacular." -- Tim Herron

Betcha they put an exclamation point in there, though. (!)

[Jeff_Brauer]

"So i threw the clubs on the plane no suprise"

Hmm, its a wonder he could get on plane with his clubs, much less throw them around the cabin (esp. since he makes it sound like he has a reputation for such things as it was "no surprise") and not get kicked right off by TSA.....

Or do you think Tim needs a little help from Dan in his writings?

[Dan Kelly]

Hmm, its a wonder he could get on plane with his clubs, much less throw them around the cabin (esp. since he makes it sound like he has a reputation for such things as it was "no surprise") and not get kicked right off by TSA.....

Maybe he buys an extra seat for his clubs.

You know -- two for him, one for his clubs...

(I know, I know: pot ... kettle ... without sin ... first stone ... yadda yadda.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

"Ill take the window seat(S) please.....

I know its a bad day when I am in coach, and a guy asks for a "seat belt extender." For some reason, those guys always, always, end up in the row next to, or literally on top of, me.

[Joe Hancock]

Dan,

"Ill take the window seat(S) please.....

I know its a bad day when I am in coach, and a guy asks for a "seat belt extender." For some reason, those guys always, always, end up in the row next to, or literally on top of, me.

For me, I usually end up next to the female version of above, who is toting a large bag holding multitudes of crunchy snacks in noisy cellophane. And this happened once....a woman, upon being given permission to turn cell phones on after landing, proceeded to turn on all THREE of her cell phones....I figured she was an important person, like maybe the CEO of Curves(tm).

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:

Sorry to be Clintonesque, but to answer your question I have to go back to asking what you mean by "difficult for the Tour players".

If you want to make it difficult for a guy ever to shoot 62, you make the greens as difficult as Oakmont's.  And if it's soft, I'm betting there's somebody out there who is one shot better than Johnny Miller, 33 years on.

My comment about the answer being rough and trees was serious, if the question is do you want the qualifying score to be as high as possible.  Tour pros are not the straightest of hitters from week to week, and rough and trees will affect more than half of them.  I'm not saying that is the way to INTERESTING golf, but if you want high scores, that's the way to get them.  It won't prevent somebody from hitting every fairway and shooting 62, but they have to hit almost every fairway to do it.  For a demonstration, just wait til the TPC at Sawgrass in 2007!

Length, as you say, is not as important.  Unless the course is OVER 8,000 yards it isn't going to be hard for Tour players.

The single toughest thing for Tour players is wind, but that's only a consistent factor in certain locales.