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Adam Clayman

Bunker Inspirations?
« on: September 18, 2006, 10:15:18 AM »
In a recent discussion, I made the statement that Baxter's ode to Mackenzie was clealry evident in his bunkerwork on the 12th at Black Mesa.

Immediately shotdown with a remark that was similar to "those bunkers look nothing like Mackenzie's".

Here are some pictures to help illustrate the debate.

Do these Black Mesa bunkers look like some of the good Doctor's work?



"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2006, 10:23:43 AM »
Adam:  While the bunkers you pictured were built to be faithful to MacKenzie's originals, they were built by Jim Urbina and some of our shapers.

I'm sure that Baxter's bunkers at Black Mesa were inspired by MacKenzie, but to me they wouldn't quite pass for MacKenzie's work.  The general shapes are close to some of MacKenzie's stuff, but the grassed-down lips are not like anything I can remember seeing on a MacKenzie course.  Whether that makes them worse, or better, is just a matter of taste.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2006, 10:26:16 AM »
Adam,

First, are those Valley Club bunkers MacKenzies, or taken after the Doak redo?

I think the Black Mesa bunkers are fair approximations of what MacKenzie bunkers generally look like.  To be sure, some of Macs' bunkers like those at CP had more jagged edges originally, which got taken out for practical reasons over the years.  Others didn't.

I think the difference is in the detail. I think Mac's crew shine when making each lobe a little different in size, vs. modern bunkers, where the dozers tend to make them all the same size.  As for Ken and Baxter's work, other details include the fact that they use steeper grass banks and flatter sand, the bunkers are somewhat larger in general, and they turn and extend their bunker noses further than the good doc.

MacKenzie seemed to angle his noses at different and attractive angles, but I don't recall too many of them changing directions.

The back left bunker in the first photo appears to me to be very symbolic of McKenzie bunker work during that period, with shape both front and back.  

Like restoration, I guess it depends on just how close they need to replicate the original design style in your minds eye.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2006, 10:29:32 AM »
I'll admit it was the shape that I was referring in my analogy.

But, thanx for clarity.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2006, 12:01:06 PM »
I"m tempted to turn this into a slide show of Renaissance work by Bruce Hepner, at North Shore CC in Menasha, WI.  

The first time I had posted the Valley Club pics a few years ago, I mentioned it was Bruce Hepner's work, which was incorrect as Tom Doak also tells us that Jim Urbina was the artist on that project.  I promptly received an e-mail, and rightfully so, advising that Urbina was "the man".

I am not authoritative enough nor do I have the credentials to declare one man's work (Urbina's at Valley Club VS Bruce Hepner's at North Shore) as most restorative of MacKenzie's style.  Obviously, North Shore isn't even a MacKenzie course.  Yet, the remodelled work, appears to me to scream the style I have most often seen of MacKenzie, so much so that I am wondering if The Good Dr." was channelling through Hepner's brain.  As was explained and exhibitted to me by their super, Scott Schaller, not only the matter of the little tongues and capes and bays and noses are expertly fashioned, but Hepner took care to create little internal cuppy sub sections within bunkers with adequate and well planned drainage, to give each of these bunkers the multiple bunker within a bunker feel.  It is hard to describe without seeing these little details up close and personal.  But, I have oodles of photos to document Hepner's work there as best as photos can, as I feel it is the best work (remodel evoking MacKenzie style at Montecito) that I have ever seen.

I don't know if there is a serious rivalry between Urbina and Hepner in fact.  But, with these two artists, any rivalry that pushes each other to create this sort of work is a benefit to the art and craft that all those interested in such work should study carefully.  
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 12:01:51 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joshua Pettit

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 12:23:25 PM »
In a recent discussion, I made the statement that Baxter's ode to Mackenzie was clealry evident in his bunkerwork on the 12th at Black Mesa.

Immediately shotdown with a remark that was similar to "those bunkers look nothing like Mackenzie's".

Here are some pictures to help illustrate the debate.

Do these Black Mesa bunkers look like some of the good Doctor's work?



     
VALLEY CLUB #15 PRIOR TO OPENING DAY 1929

Jim and the Renaissance guys did a very good job with most of the bunkers, especially considerring the fact that this photo, and a lot of others, weren't available at the time of construction.  The majority of the bunkers are as close to the original MacKenzie and Hunter design (and Fleming and Cole) as any others that I have encountered on other MacKenzie courses.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 01:28:23 PM by Josh Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Adam Clayman

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 12:32:37 PM »
Josh, Sure wish we could fix that photo. I'm not getting the one you posted.

I guess my next lesson will be to somhow see all the details the way you guys do.

Thanks for all the responses, so far. But i'm most anxious to hear from my debator and if he will concede that my statement was no farther off than his. ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 12:36:52 PM »
Josh, I think you may have posted the wrong photo if you are trying to show one of 15 on opening day in 1929. :) ;D

Please post the 1929 one if you have it available.

Here is some bunkermeister work of just one hole at North Shore to wet your whistles... ;) ;D :o








Gentlemen, that is just one hole.  While the course is considerably flatter terrain than Valley Club, the bunkering more than makes up for terrain deficits...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 01:05:49 PM »
Josh, it appears that you have the picture within the quote box. I don't know if that matters, but I still don't see anything other than the photo Dick posted on the clubhouse thread.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joshua Pettit

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 01:07:12 PM »
Josh, I think you may have posted the wrong photo if you are trying to show one of 15 on opening day in 1929. :) ;D

Please post the 1929 one if you have it available.


I'm not sure why you guys can't see the photo, it shows up fine on my computer when I view the message board.  It is uploaded to PhotoBucket and I am using a mac, but when I have posted photos in the past it has always worked.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 01:08:35 PM by Josh Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

RJ_Daley

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 01:20:37 PM »
Josh, if you are referring to the visable photo on your reply #5, we see it.  However, if that be the case, then you are mistaken as to it being opening day 1929.  It was taken a couple of years ago, by yours truly, showing Urbina's work.  (one of my best photos I might say)  We were there on a magical day where we were offered special treat to play there by a very nice gentleman.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kevin_Reilly

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 01:33:02 PM »
I see Josh's photo fine.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Adam Clayman

Re:Bunker Inspirations?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 01:40:38 PM »
I see it now, Thanx
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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