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Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Educating the Membership?
« on: August 28, 2006, 01:11:09 PM »
I play a Steve Smyers course in Cincinnati named Ivy Hills. The course is built on the side of hill and is clearly designed to play firm and first. Many of the drives provide the opportunity to use slopes to kick your ball forward and the greens provide some options to use the contours as well.

However, the course has either new/younger members or many that are inexperienced at golf. Apparently they insist on keeping the course green all year, which in Cincinnati means that you have to water a lot in July and August. I played this weekend and literally had a ball plug so far into the fairway that you could only see a dime-sized portion of the ball. Another fairway I hit a down slope with a hard draw and the ball backed up.

So, what can be down to educate the members? I know the USGA came out years ago and told them they were watering too much and the tops of every knob should be brown.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 01:42:32 PM »
 Steve,


    One of our greenkeeper types shared here a survey he used at his course. I can't recall who shared it ( my guess is that he was from the U.K.) but it showed members that they can't have it all. Healthy, firm, and green throughout the year--you can't have all three.
AKA Mayday

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 07:39:29 PM »
Steve Kline,

You're fortunate.
The architect who designed and built your golf course is alive and well.

If I was actively involved at your golf club, I"d try to arrange for Steve to visit your club to meet with the Green Chairman, Green Committee, President and Board, so that he could tell them how the course was designed and how it was designed to PLAY.

You can't find a better third party source than the original architect.

I"ve always felt that clubs should put the architect on the Green Committee and that suggested changes to the golf course should be presented to him prior to any work being done.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 07:39:59 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 08:00:33 PM »
Steve,

You are not alone in your problem. I'll be watching for answers here as well. It's tough when the membership expects fairways to look like a front lawn rather than a playing field for the game of golf. I guess that somehow that's the distinction that has to be made.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2006, 01:07:59 AM »
I even let my front lawn get a little brown this time of year.

Signed,

Dedicated firm and fast guy

TEPaul

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2006, 06:57:05 AM »
"So, what can be done to educate the members? I know the USGA came out years ago and told them they were watering too much and the tops of every knob should be brown."

Steve:

What you need to do is admit that your concern that they need to be educated is real and just has to be done, and cannot be avoided, if you want to accomplish what you say you do which is to dry that golf course out when weather and maintenance schedules permit it.

Next you have to figure out how it can be done. The best way I know is to also admit that the membership of the club and their opinions cannot be avoided and should not be. They should not be treated as some adverserial camp or some non-entity as some on this board treat them and believe they should be treated or avoidied.

Having come to that realization, you need to explain to them and in detail what firm and fast playability really is, the joy and interest and challenge of it compared to consistently soaked and thatched dartboard golf courses.

When I say explain to them in detail I really mean that. Details mean definition, real distinct and specific definitions and you just have to do that if you want them to eventually understand what they need to understand. You need to actually quantify what firm and fast means in relation to the bounce and roll of a golf ball---eg like 40-50 yards on tee shot LZs, or 20 yards on approaches and the exact FIRMNESS of green surfaces. These things can be defined and they frankly must be.

It's my feeling that generally speaking entire memberships basically love this kind of playability and why wouldn't they? When it comes to real firm and fast playability it's generally something of a win/win situation across the playing level spectrum of golfers---eg it actually makes most courses play more challenging for good players and for the rest the ball simply goes farther and that's hugely popular with that contingent.

But in the end, to do this, to go down this path, you and the committee that's going to arrange for it through the maintenance dept needs to understand fully what the maintenance dept really does need to do to get it done correctly. If you don't do that correctly things will get confusing and you could be looking at some real disasters agronomically and with your memberships expectations.

Finally, with the latter step put into effect correctly you do need to manage your memberships expectations, or they may be surprised by something you did not inform them of in the broad scheme of this kind of maintenance and playability practice.

We have hit that snag right now and I'm about to write a comprehensive report that will hopefully deal with all their expectations and misconceptions particularly in the "look" of the course AT PARTICULAR TIMES OF THE YEAR under a generally firm and fast program.

And lastly, do not feel your club is operating in a vacuum this way with the golf course or with the membership. Reach out and collaborate with others that have come before you, have made mistakes that they can explain to you how to avoid and who have gotten there, or gotten most of the way there.

I know you are already doing that with this post.

Do more of it. Reach out and email and call the clubs you want to emulate this way. Find out who they are. Email me--my contact info is on this board if you click on my name.

Good luck
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 06:59:50 AM by TEPaul »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2006, 07:39:26 AM »
If the super feels pressure to "keep it green" and the result is a soft, wet golf course then he may be able to justify cutting back the water using science to demostrate the course is overwatered.
Using ET data, crop co-effieceints, and water audits, it's time consuming but not overly difficult to determine the amount of water that will keep the turf healthy, but not lush.
Chances are if the course is too wet, it is being over irrigated and using sceince may be an easy way to quantify the over use of water without all the subjective input from members that always comes with any changes.


Ian Dalzell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 07:22:29 PM »
We are currently educating our membership at Hidden Creek in NJ that brown can be good, as we firm up the golf course the way C&C intended it to be played.  The members who are knowledgeable have been raving about the course for the past 3 weeks, as we turned off the sprinklers and continued our topdressing efforts to let the ground game play it's part in your round!  It has been fantastic, with that beautiful "thud"  you hear when you bang your putter on the green - it is music to the ears!

Kudo's to our super, who has worked hard to firm it up.  It certainly is an educative process.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 08:58:21 PM »
IDazell,

Hidden Creek benefits from an unusual partnership between Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw, Roger Hansen, Jeff Riggs and yourself.

All of the above individuals understand the benefits of fast and firm and that the color of the grass isn't as important as how it plays.

Hopefully, the membership will come to understand and appreciate the conditions you strive for.

Keep up the great work.

Aaron Katz

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2006, 11:12:10 PM »
Hold a "club tournament."  Have the super tell them he's getting it firm and fast so that it plays like a major championship and that it's just a temporary thing.  All the members will start hitting their drives 40 yards further.  They'll rave and won't want to go back to green mud fairways.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2006, 11:28:58 PM »
I wonder how regional this issue is?

In SE Wisconsin most every  club i play the conditions are the same. Soft and Lush.

I ask if firm conditions would be better, and to a few it makes sense, but quiet and blank stares are the big favorite.

The usual line is "The course has never been in better shape" Thats after  three woods plug in the fairway, and drivers back up,  in the middle of August.

Im glad this topic keeps coming up because it's a good fight...the more ideas the better.  

TEPaul

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2006, 07:36:38 AM »
Ian:

The good news with Hidden Creek and its vast difference from other courses struggling to start down the firm and fast road is Hidden Creek is a new course and its turf never has been over-irrigated and left in that totally soaked state for a long period of time. I doubt Hidden Creek's turf has even remotely needed to make a transition.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2006, 07:57:27 AM »
For the club championship at the beginning of August the course was dried out a little bit and I thought may be they were starting to change. Wrong.

Is there anything out there, like a white paper or something, that talks the stress and disease and extra cost from over watering?

TEPaul

Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2006, 08:18:21 AM »
"Is there anything out there, like a white paper or something, that talks the stress and disease and extra cost from over watering?"

Steve:

Good question. There probably is. But let's put it this way---I think it's safe to say that any good super can tell you that your turf will be a lot more vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and problems if the combined heat and humidity level hits 150 or more and your grass is constantly wet as oppose to dry. Constantly over-irrigated turf is generally very shallow rooted for obvious reasons and consistently dry turf is deeper rooted. Logic tells us which condition can fend for itself better.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Educating the Membership?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2006, 08:26:29 AM »
Steve,
Forget about trying to educate "the membership".  You need to start by educating the members of the "Green Committee" first.  If you can't get them on board, you have no hope with the rest of the membership.  

I'd bring your architect Steve Smyers in to speak specifically with the Green committee.  Once they get on board, you can maybe do another meet and greet session with Steve inviting the rest of the club.  

I've been doing lots of these talks/sessions of late and they can work.    

Good luck!
Mark

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