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Mark_Rowlinson

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Robert von Hagge
« on: August 28, 2006, 06:42:44 AM »
I don't think I've played any of his courses.  What is his work like?
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 08:00:52 AM »
Mark:

I live on a Von Hagge course, Admirals Cove. You are welcome to play it anytime. It is alot of fun and excellent for Florida with lots of forced carries.

He also did the White Witch in Jamica which is excellent as well.

Cary
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 09:02:26 AM »
Mark

There was a thread on von Hagge about 6 months ago.

Kelly Blake Moran worked for him.

www.vonhagge.com

Steve

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 09:14:46 AM »
Mark, He is a big force in the Houston area. I am not a fan of his at all. He is to me what Ted Robinson is to Tommy. He has done a few good courses though. We discussed him at length in the earlier thread.
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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 11:47:12 AM »
I am not a big fan of von Hagge's work either- seems to rely on severe mounding of fairway peripheries and greens, making his courses too severe and difficult for my tastes.  However, his collaboration with Bruce Devlin in Texas resulted in two very good courses which I like a lot: Crown Colony and Lake Walden.  According to a knowledgeable source, Devlin had little to do with the actual design work, which was a total surprise to me because these two courses seem like a large departure from von Hagge's solo work (e.g. Northgate, Cliffs at Possum Kingdom, Playacar).
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 11:53:29 AM »
I seconds Lou's feelings on Crown Colony.
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Ryan Farrow

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 12:06:09 PM »
I recently played a private course of his in Northern Arziona. From what I saw there was way too much mounding on the edges of the fairways and behind the green. Another strange occurance was that all the long holes seemed to play uphill while the short ones and the par 5's were downhill. Other than that the course looked beautiful and was pretty fun to play.
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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 12:12:51 PM »
Ryan's post brought to mind that von Hagge courses tend to be very nice looking.  His mounding and contouring create some wonderful, eeire shadowing in early morning and late evening light, which may be his intent.  The use of light in architecture to impact play probably has some interesting aspects worth exploring and, possibly, development.
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Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 02:30:09 PM »
My local Muni., Boone Links in Florence. KY, (nee' Boone Aire CC) is a Devlin/Von HAgge. Good routing, devoid of the mounding I've seen on more recent Devlin/Von Hagges, but perhaps the hilly terrain trumped the need for any of that. Some of the teeth in the course have been lost to some re-routing and "dumbing down" of the course when it became public. Still a solid test though not long. Excellent greens.

I am not fond of either The Woodlands in Houston or Tanoan in Albuquerque. Tanoan especially is very forgettable.

Von Hagge recently consulted at Coldstream in Cincinnati on its bunker restoration project. I am told that though he had not been on site since he was an associate for Dick Wilson when the course was built, he had an almost photographic mental recollection of the original work. He did the consulting for travel expenses only. The club is very happy with the results.
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henrye

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 03:31:33 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on August 28, 2006, 08:00:52 AM
He also did the White Witch in Jamica which is excellent as well.

From my experience, Von Hagge has created some excellent courses, but he is the anithesis of minimalism.

At Isla Navidad in the Mexican riviera his group created a wonderful course(s) 3-nines, just south of El Tamarindo.  The land is dead flat and sits on a mile or two of completely isolated oceanfront.  His group has shaped the land to create the type of variety which makes for excellent golf.

On the other hand, I think his work in Jamaica at the White Witch is an abomination.  A cart only eye-candy special on extreme land.
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Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 04:15:30 PM »
I have not played Les Bordes in France which he designed, but it regularly rates among the best courses in France/Europe.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 04:28:28 PM »
Quote from: HenryE on August 28, 2006, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on August 28, 2006, 08:00:52 AM
He also did the White Witch in Jamica which is excellent as well.

From my experience, Von Hagge has created some excellent courses, but he is the anithesis of minimalism.

At Isla Navidad in the Mexican riviera his group created a wonderful course(s) 3-nines, just south of El Tamarindo.  The land is dead flat and sits on a mile or two of completely isolated oceanfront.  His group has shaped the land to create the type of variety which makes for excellent golf.

On the other hand, I think his work in Jamaica at the White Witch is an abomination.  A cart only eye-candy special on extreme land.

White Witch: "Abomination", Whew, tough audience out there ;D, glad I just play em, not build em
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:30:01 PM by cary lichtenstein »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

henrye

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 04:39:44 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on August 28, 2006, 04:28:28 PM

White Witch: "Abomination", Whew, tough audience out there ;D, glad I just play em, not build em


Apologies Cary.  Abomination might be too harsh a word, but it popped into my head so I used it.  How about - to quote Austin Danger Powers - it's just not my bag, baby.  
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 05:19:40 PM »
Henry E,

Did you play Cinnamon Hill next door to White Witch? If so interested to hear your thoughts.

Von Hagge has done quite a bit of work here in Mexico and Isla Navidad may be his best although nothing jumps out as spectacular. The finishing hole at Playacar is rather sporty. ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 11:10:35 AM by Greg Tallman »
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henrye

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 05:35:05 PM »
Greg.  Have not played Cinnamon Hill.  Is that a Von Hagge as well?
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 06:37:16 PM »
Henry, "not my bag, baby" hey, i can respect that
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 06:42:32 PM by cary lichtenstein »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 07:29:41 PM »
His design of Boca Rio in 1967 was outstanding.

See the courses by country for a review by Ran.
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Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2006, 07:32:27 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on August 28, 2006, 07:29:41 PM
His design of Boca Rio in 1967 was outstanding.


So when did he go wrong?
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2006, 07:41:49 PM »
Quote from: HenryE on August 28, 2006, 05:35:05 PM
Greg.  Have not played Cinnamon Hill.  Is that a Von Hagge as well?

Did not believe so but upon researching it is a Von Hagge/Baril course. From the recent description I read it would seam it may have been reworked or rerouted as some of the hole descriptions did not jive with my memory. I recall liking the finish there quite a bit but upon reading the description I was able to retreive wonder if it's the same course??! Some average quirky stuff but some excellent holes as well... until opening of Ritz next door the condtioning was always suspect. Worth a look if you are there if only because nohing else very close is.

Yep - Upon further research appears that the course was "renovated" in 2003 or so and the front nine has changed significantly (likely for the better from what I could gather) and the back has a couple of tweaks... unfortunately the brutish par-3 16th appears to have been a victim with the final two holes the same(good).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 07:49:26 PM by Greg Tallman »
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David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 07:56:33 PM »
Colony West in western Broward County, Florida is an excellent lay-out with one strong hole after another. Built back in the 70's, I believe, the course stretched to over 7200 yards back when that was a real chore. You definitely used your long irons and fairway woods there, and not for tee shots. Even when played from shorter tees it presented a tough challenge, with one tough interesting hole after another, excellent variety, and lots of risk/reward opportunities. I believe that a lot of tour players would go over there to get beat up while they were in the area playing the Jackie Gleason Inverrary Classic.
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Thomas_Brown

Re:Robert von Hagge
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 11:53:00 PM »
I think I played about 4 or 5 of his designs in Houston.
Like architect Jack in the 1980's, think of him as a period architect on a bulldozer.

He did design TPC Woodlands, right?

The designs I saw are mediocre - a notch above Robinson. :)
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