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TEPaul

Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2006, 09:08:59 AM »
MikeC:

Do you? I'm sort of inclined to as well, but I wonder how it can be better proven.

wsmorrison

Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2006, 09:12:17 AM »
A photographic study of the evolution of bunkering could possibly make the case for the influence of Merion's bunkers on American golf design.  Even if not, it would be an interesting study none the less showing the chronology of bunker styles.  If brought up to date, the cycling back to a classic look would be evident.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 09:13:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Bill Brightly

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Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2006, 02:43:52 PM »
Matt, I know you said left out National to provoke discussion, so I'll respond, (but I know you were only joking).

It is clearly THE most influential course built in the US. I'll start by acknowledging that Macdonald copied holes, or parts of holes, from great courses overseas. But when it opened, National exceeded anything that had been built up to that point in time. He created 18 great holes. Every course in the US was blown away, even Scotsmen took notice, and other architects had to react accordingly. I really dont know much about the relations Macdonald had with Tillinghast, Ross, etc. but it seems logicacl that they were always striving to equal or surpass NGLA.

You ask what courses were built in its image? Oh my, only about 100. Some guy named Seth Raynor was hired as a surveyor/engineer on the NGLA project, and he would go on to build Fishers Island, Carmargo, Shoreacres, etc..all in the "Macdonald-style" including Redans, Edens, Biarritz, Road Holes, Cape holes, etc. Raynor used the same models that Macdonald drew up, and built these holes on every course he built! The courses are nothing if not consistent with the concepts used at National!

And Raynor hired Charles Banks, who would take over the business when Raynor died. Banks would use these same models to build Hackensack, Forsgate, Rock Spring, Essex County CC, etc. etc.

Macdonald was almost surley the first one to move massive amounts of dirt to build his courses. Like it or not, he became famous for it, as did his protegees, Raynor and (Steamshovel) Banks.

Macdonald's bunkering changed how US course were built. Rather than penal obstacles that had to be carried, but could not be avoided, Macdonald introduced risk/reward to US course construction. I think that had an impact...

The bunkering style: large, deep, steep-faced is typical of all Macdonald-Raynor-Banks courses.

Because the greens first planted at NGLA grew in poorly, Macdonald was forced to research a variety of seed mixtures and planting techniques: the first golf course agronomy was begun! You could say that was meaningful...

Lastly, even if Macdonald's design were not original, by copying great holes he added to the legend of these holes and the courses. Sure, the 17th at The Old Course is a great hole. But by building versions of it time and again, Macdonald-Raynor-Banks added to it's legend and importance. The same is true of the Redan and Biarritz holes.

There, you provoked a respone!

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2006, 07:54:36 PM »
And I forfot these Raynor courses that have NGLA features: Mid Pacific, Waialee, Southampton, Dunes Course at Monterray, Yeamans Hall, and the redesign of the Chicago Golf Club.

In all, about 10 top 100 courses the US can trace their to NGLA.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2006, 08:35:49 PM »
Bill:  Your point is well taken, but when I think of the term "influential" I think of how OTHER architects were moved, not how popular was the style of that particular architect.

By your definition the most influential designers would be Trent Jones, Ross, Colt, Bendelow, and Nicklaus, because they built the most courses.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Influential Courses/Designs
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2006, 08:58:35 PM »
Bill:  Your point is well taken, but when I think of the term "influential" I think of how OTHER architects were moved, not how popular was the style of that particular architect.

By your definition the most influential designers would be Trent Jones, Ross, Colt, Bendelow, and Nicklaus, because they built the most courses.

Not at all, Tom. I listed those courses in response to this quote by the orinal poster:
"Leave out NGLA. What courses were built in its style?"

Raynor was so obviously "moved" by Macdonald that he used those hole designs time and again. And Banks would follow in the same manner.

But what really has me curious is what INDIRECT influence National had on all archhitects. I mean he raised the bar tremendously! Even the Old course had a few weak, boring holes. The Shinnecock members were in awe of NGLA, and decided they had to re-design their course. I wonder what Tillinghast must have thought to himself when he saw NGLA? While Tilly built in his own style, NGLA just HAD to be on his mind as motivating factor, don't you think?

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