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Philip Gawith

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Firestone Farce
« on: August 25, 2006, 05:35:29 PM »
So what say our rules boys?

 Was anyone else watching the 40 minute farce as Tiger played his final hole - hits the ball over the back of the green, onto the road, onto the clubhouse, probably over the clubhouse too into the parking lot, yet somehow this is not out of bounds - though it takes 35 minutes to make the decision - he gets a free drop (100 yards away) and drops only one shot.

????

Doug Sobieski

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 05:48:39 PM »
If it's not out of bounds, it's not out of bounds. I find it hard to call that a farce, although the time it took to resolve was a bit much. They can't "declare" it OB in that situation.

We had a similar situation in the Florida State Amateur at Bay Hill about 10 years ago. Kid hits the cart path behind the 9th green and goes over the two-story Lodge. FSGA calls me and asks if that's OB. Of course not, who in the world would hit it over there. Ball had come to rest on closely mown grass (practically fairway cut) on the other side over by the pool. Gets a yardage, hits it over, lips out for par.

Philip Gawith

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 05:57:57 PM »
The commentators on Sky seemed completely clear that the ball had carried over a clearly drawn white line that went all round the clubhouse.

But even if that were not the case, instances like this which fly in the face of common sense  - did you see the shot? he airmailed the green by about 20 yards, then landed on a tar road, etc etc - are bad for the rules of golf overall because they diminish respect for them - IMO.

Phil McDade

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 06:00:42 PM »
Wasn't there something similar a few years back at the PGA qualifying school tourney, where a guy either right on the edge of qualifying or close to it airmailed the 18th, and ended up on some roof? Can't recall the ruling -- I do know the guy didn't make it through Q-school because of the resulting score on that hole.

Ulrich Mayring

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 06:04:23 PM »
If it carried over the OB line, it is not necessarily OB. It depends where it comes to rest. If the line was drawn around the clubhouse and it comes to rest outside of the circle, it is not OB.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 06:04:56 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

JohnV

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2006, 06:31:39 PM »
Philip, if the guys on Sky saw a white line painted around the clubhouse, they were the only ones because the guys in the US didn't and the Tour Staff didn't.   Since the Tour Staff setup the golf course, I'm guessing they know what is in bounds and out of bounds better than some broadcaster.  According to them, the only OB on the property is the driving range.

I had a similar event at a qualifier for the West Penn Amateur last year when a player hit a ball over the 18th green and up against the clubhouse.  A couple of members kept yelling that it was out of bounds and said so right on their scorecard.  I pointed out that our scorecard didn't say that (and as a matter of fact said to ignore anything on their scorecard), there were no lines or stakes and as far as I was concerned it was on the property and in bounds.

Interestingly, I was at the same club today, setting up for a tournament on Monday.  I was debating if I would make the clubhouse out of bounds this time.  I don't think I will now.

I hate making anything out of bounds if it is on the property just because it takes away a player's opportunity to play a ball.

John_Cullum

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 06:52:05 PM »
John V

The primary problem I had with the way the situation with Tiger was handled was that Tiger nor his caddy ever searched for the ball. It was later found but I beleive it was well over 5 minutes from the time Tiger arrived at the entrance to the clubhouse and never attempted to go further. I start the clock on him then, and in my opinion he had to make some attempt to find his ball. He should not have been allowed the benfefit of all the assumptions made about where his ball came to rest with no attempt to find it.

From my observation, Tiger's lack of a diligent effort to find his ball caused the delay.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Brad Klein

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 07:03:13 PM »
We can debate the rules all we want, but I thought Billy Kratzert did an awful job with Mike Shea when he interviewed him about the ruling immediately after and never asked a serious question about alternative or why the clubhouse was not white-staked as o.b.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 07:03:48 PM by Brad Klein »

JohnV

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 07:05:25 PM »
John, there has been a discussion of this on the Leith Society pages for a long time.  The question is, if my ball is in an obstruction, ground under repair or casual water where I can't see it, do I have to search for it?  In my opinion, you don't, but a fellow competitor or opponent could and if he finds it before you've played, you would have to use the original ball.

Do you know what Tiger was told when he arrived at the clubhouse?  Perhaps by then it had been found/taken.  If not, does he have to go on the roof and look for it?

See Decision 27-2b/1 where a player doesn't want to search, but his opponent does.

Again, if it was deemed to be lost by the officials, he would have gotten to drop in a more advantageous position in my opinion.  For that reason I don't think it was.

The delay was caused by trying to figure out where the drop should be taken.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 07:09:37 PM »
John,
But the roof of a clubhouse?

Would Rule 1, Equity, ever come into play here?

JohnV

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 07:10:03 PM »
Dan, as I've said about 4 times on these threads, if the ball was lost in the obstruction, it was no penalty and he gets to drop where it entered the obstruction which was the by the road in front of the clubhouse.

Please read my previous explanation of why the TIO rule was used.  He had interference from the clubhouse and intervention from the grandstand (between him and the hole), therefore he can go under either rule.  Going under the TIO rule got things done quicker as if he took relief from the clubhouse, he would still have had TIO intervention.

Brad,  Why it wasn't OB is a good question.   It could have been because they didn't think it would come into play or they might have a policy of not marking OB on the golf course property unless it is for safety (ie the driving range).

JohnV

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 07:12:11 PM »
Equity is for situations not covered by the rules.  A ball lost in an obstruction is covered by the rules.  I'm not sure how the roof has anything to do with equity.  If it went through a window and into a bathroom and down the toilet would you have to fish for it?

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 07:18:53 PM »
John - Thanks again  

Greg Beaulieu

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 10:15:04 PM »
I missed the live coverage of this so I am at somewhat of a disadvantage -- but from what was shown on TGC tonight it appeared that well over 5 minutes had passed before the ball was discovered on the backside of the clubhouse. I thought there was a 5 minute limit after which you had to declare the ball "lost" and rehit with penalty? If so, why was that not applied here?

I am also baffled as to how a permanent structure can be considered as a TIO.

Jason McNamara

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2006, 02:27:49 AM »
John, there has been a discussion of this on the Leith Society pages for a long time.  The question is, if my ball is in an obstruction, ground under repair or casual water where I can't see it, do I have to search for it?  In my opinion, you don't, but a fellow competitor or opponent could and if he finds it before you've played, you would have to use the original ball.

This was exactly the issue in the Mickelson - Lickliter playoff at Torrey Pines a couple years back.  Phil went in the gunch, Phil didn't want to look for it but Frank found the ball.  Anyway, Phil's double beat Frank's triple, iirc.

Jason

Steve Okula

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2006, 02:43:44 AM »
Equity is for situations not covered by the rules.  A ball lost in an obstruction is covered by the rules.  I'm not sure how the roof has anything to do with equity.  If it went through a window and into a bathroom and down the toilet would you have to fish for it?

I can picture Tiger standing there over Steve Williams on his knees with a rubber glove on one hand reaching down as far as he could into the drain.

Now THAT would be theatre worth watching while Tiger pummeled the field.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Joe Hancock

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Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2006, 07:58:04 AM »
Not sure whether to post this here or the other rules thread, but...

As the debate turns to whether the clubhouse is in or out of bounds, I can't help thinking about a previous thread dealing with halfway houses. Are they typically in bounds or out? Are they a different ruling than a clubhouse and if so, why?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JohnV

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2006, 10:12:12 AM »
Jason, Frank didn't find Phil's ball, a marshall did, but the result is the same.  Once the ball is found, the provisional is no longer in play and you either play the ball or go under the unplayable ball rule.

Joe,
Halfway houses would usually be in bounds I would think as they are usually right in the middle of the golf course.

Something is not out of bounds unless there are stakes, lines or some other marking or wording on a local rules sheet to the effect that it is out of bounds.

According to the tour staff in their press conference, the only course they play where the clubhouse is out of bounds is Colonial and that is because the club declares it that way so they keep it that way.

They prefer to keep everything on the property in bounds because balls bounce to funny places (obviously) and the penalty for OB is harsh.

Doug Ralston

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2006, 10:31:28 AM »
Now two threads on this, and I hope each person on both threads checks for consistancy!

The ruling was EXPLAINED! It was clear. Many others concurred who were officials. I suspect they got it right.

I also suspect Tiger was surprised. In fact, i know it, because I was watching. he did not realize it was NOT OB, and thought they would rule thus. Most of the delay was in getting officials to the scen to rule, btw.

Doug

TEPaul

Re:Firestone Farce
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2006, 08:26:42 PM »
I think it's kind of funny but very telling to read some of the posts on here of some type of moral opprobrium that some feel when they watch some of the Rules situations, interpretations and such that happen "on Tour".

First of all, the concept and principle behind something like "obstructions" in golf to which free relief has always been granted simply has to do with interference on golf courses from things the Rules always considered to be not part of the playing of the game on its natural field of play.

In a sense the way some of us look at what happens on Tour is sort of like the way some members of clubs only look at architecture in the context of their own game and no one else's.

When most of us think of free relieve from "Obstructions" we think of artificially surfaced roads, junction boxes, bridges and such as the normal course of "obstructions" to which free relief is granted.

Now, for those of us who are older who ever lived in small towns just imagined how much everything changed when the Barnum/Bailey circus rolled into town on their lengthy train.  

Now imagine about ten Barnum/Bailey circuses rolling into town and into one place---that week's "PGA Tour" golf course.

The "obstruction" principle basically stays the same but the problem in a golf Rules context probably magnifies about 100 times compared to anything that we can relate to or are used to in the way we play golf with obstructions and interference to the natural or normal way golf is played in the context of the Rules.  ;)

There's no real reason for any moral opporobrium in a Rules context re some of the things a player like Woods goes through. That guy plays on the center stage of about a dozen Barnum/Bailey circuses every time he tees it up in a tournament.

;)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 08:32:57 PM by TEPaul »

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