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Jason Blasberg

Redanman raise a very interesting issue that it's never really dry in the Chicago area during the Summer.  

So are the USGA and PGA better served sticking to geograhic regions that are predominantly dry in June and August, respectively?  Moreover, are they better served sticking to sand based venues so even if there's rain the course will drain faster and still play firmer?  

What are the ideal regions for maximizing the chances for "firm and fast" conditions in both June and August?

What are a dozen or so sand based options for both tourneys?


Andy Troeger

Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 11:50:19 AM »
Jason,
  I can't speak for Chicago, but in South Bend 90 miles away its dry fairly often in August depending on the year. Quite frankly its not exactly soggy around here now, so there's a pretty reasonable chance of it in the midwest...it just depends on luck.
  Its certainly possible that Chicago has gotten a lot more rain than we have this summer, but I would say that most of the courses around here are pretty firm right now unless they wish to be otherwise.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 12:11:20 PM »
Jason,

Getting these committees that decide major matters to realize they have been in a dark age of GCA, making the current rota potentially seriously flawed, will be just another long-term positive aspect of Ran's treehouse. It will require patience and some crafty politicing on behalf of those in a position to decide, properly in the future.

 My guess is there are plenty of potential sand based venues. From Monterey to Georgia. But, it's also my guess that your suggestion should be more about major changes, in not only the venue, but the timing of the majors. Take the Open Championship over the past few years; except for one day at St. Georges, the weather has been as benign as I assume UK summers get. Move the bloody thing to a period where there's at least some chance for mother nature's unpredictability. But alas, less shirt sales.

 El Nino' wasn't a known thing until recently. Future venues and dates should use this new scientific knowledge to assist in the american major venue selections. The selection should, in part, be considered on the anticipated long-term weather patterns, than the traditions of an apparent old boys network.

I don't know if I agree so much with Dr. Bill's assesment of overly wet Chicago summers. But certainly, Medinah could've pushed the envelope farther. I assume the early soft conditions were an attempt to lengthen the course beyond it's real yardage.  ::)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 12:39:03 PM »
It's never dry on golf courses with trees in Chicago in the summer?

Where the hell does a fact like that one come from?  ;)

Redanman just told me that you can't have a dry and firm course when there are trees on the holes. Or maybe he said you can't have that condition in Chicago  ;)

Hmmmm. Does redanman think we were all born yesterday or something? What happens if it doesn't rain for a long time and they don't put much irrigation water on the courses in Chicago?

Does redanman think the trees on the sides of holes in Chicago have some sort of natual irrigation system to them?  ;)

I have a lot of trees on my farm here and some of the courses here have a lot of trees on the holes. It's been dry as a bone around here for too long and some of those tree-lined courses are dry and firm.

Those must be some pretty special trees they have out there in Chicago-land.  ;)

If anyone is actually out on Medinah today why don't you look closely at some of those Medinah trees to see if they have some kind of natural irrigation heads on them.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 12:39:58 PM by TEPaul »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 01:38:54 PM »
Redanman raise a very interesting issue that it's never really dry in the Chicago area during the Summer.  

So are the USGA and PGA better served sticking to geograhic regions that are predominantly dry in June and August, respectively?  Moreover, are they better served sticking to sand based venues so even if there's rain the course will drain faster and still play firmer?  

What are the ideal regions for maximizing the chances for "firm and fast" conditions in both June and August?

What are a dozen or so sand based options for both tourneys?


Southern Hills and the expanse east of the Sierras and east of the Mississippi are the most likely places to insure those conditions during the Major season.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 05:59:32 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 04:46:33 PM »
Jason,

If I recall correctly the USGA hosted the Open at Shinnecock and the conditions presented were Fast and Firm with a touch of wind.

There's a reason that the USGA avoided courses in the south in June, and it's got to do with playing conditions.

Weather can be fickle, but, I had never heard that Chicago or any other part of the mid-west was wet in August or throughout the summer.


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 07:22:19 PM »
Based on the scores at Hazeltine for the first round of the US Amateur today, looks like firm and fast isn't a problem in that part of the midwest. Average score was close to 80 at Hazeltine for most of the day, with some top flight ams shooting BIG numbers.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 07:23:08 PM by Sean Leary »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 08:12:26 PM »
Are there firm greens right now on any courses in the Chicago area?  What are the greens like at Chicago, Shoreacres etc right now?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 08:37:07 PM »
 8)

who the heck made firm and fast the ideal???  and why is it such a mantra when no one realy plays it when its there, but of last resort?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 09:01:10 PM »
Someone in Chicago please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere (most likely here) that the area around Medinah experienced .1 inches of rain in the 13 days leading up to the PGA. If that is true and the PGA prepped the course as soft as they did my guess is there will not be a F&F PGA for a few generations of leadership there. They've got the wrong idea.

The USGA is much more inclined to prep a real F&F fast course with much less concern for keeping it green for TV. They actually seem to do it most years weather permitting.

God willing if Merion could get the weather pattern we've had this year in 7.

JohnV

Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 09:07:01 PM »
Having been at Pumpkin Ridge two weeks ago for the Women's Am, I think that it would be a perfect site for the PGA.  August is the perfect time to be in Portland.  June isn't so a US Open would be bad for F&F.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 10:04:34 PM »
How about Pinehurst 2 and then the Ocean Course at Kiawah? Two solid no-nonsense tests that play firm practically all of the time, yet present totally different conditions and challenges?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2006, 10:47:38 PM »
Um, I'm within the same general weather pattern as Chicago, and the notion that Chicago, or Medinah, was dealt a bad hand due to wet weather is, so to speak, all wet. It's been a normal-to-slightly-dry summer here in the Upper Midwest.

Adam, I think the notion of relying on scientific data and long-term weather patterns to determine sites for majors is just plain silly. I used to hang around a bunch of meteorology students back during my days living near Penn State (paging Kyle Harris), and they were a bunch of really smart folks, and they used to laugh at the notion that weather could be predicted months or years in advance, much less days. Weather patterns can be narrowed down to the four seasons, and yes, it's drier in Mullen, Neb., than Chicago, but you can't do much better than that. It's the luck of the draw. Witness what happened at the PGA a few years ago at Hazeltine -- anyone remember that 3rd round front that moved through, complete with 25-35 mph winds? THAT was a fun round of golf to watch, largely because of unpredictable weather. Compare to the US Women's Open at Newport -- a great lost opportunity to see a truly firm and fast course in its usual state, due to unprecedented East Coast rain (it was much, much browner there when Tiger won the AM there in '95).

And let's face it -- both the USGA and the PGA have a strong financial interest in rotating these majors around major geographic/populated regions of the country. Why else would they put the Open at Torrey Pines? Because Riveria can't handle it, they can't keep going back to Pebble and Olympic, and they want Southern California (broadly speaking) to have a slice of the major pie, for commercial/sponsor tie-ins.

I do endorse the idea of more majors at Kiawah, however.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2006, 10:50:31 PM »
If you remember, Pebble Beach was very firm on Sunday in 1992.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where's it most likey to be firm and fast for the US majors?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2006, 01:45:21 AM »
Nebraska gets only 6 inches of rain per year, so Sand Hills gets my nod.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta