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Patrick_Mucci

Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« on: August 17, 2006, 03:43:40 PM »
In watching some events this year I've noticed that the greens are soft and highly receptive.

Is this the result of Mother Nature ?

Or is it a deliberate maintainance practice encouraged by the PGA Tour to produce low scoring ?

Firm, Fast conditions seem to be extremely rare.

Does this send the wrong message to green committees and clubs throughout the country ?
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 03:45:15 PM »
Pat,

I agree...Why are the greens so slow and soft today.  
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ChasLawler

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 05:09:37 PM »
More so than to produce low scoring, I suspect it could have to do with the general public's fascination of watching the ball spin backwards.

And of course – soft often equals green…firm brings brown into the equation
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 09:14:43 PM »
When is the last time the PGA Tour played at a course that is consistently and systemically maintained dry enough to have brown spots? I would bet it's been decades....

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 09:26:11 PM »
The PGA, not the PGA Tour, is responsible for the soft greens at Medinah. Was there overnight rain or did the sprinklers go haywire? Greens are much too soft for a major.

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 10:10:26 PM »
The greens are too damn soft.  You are right.

The rumor is that it is the humidity....I'm not buying it.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 10:18:03 PM »
Humidity doesn't add to moisture in the soil. Total BS answer.....

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 10:31:21 PM »
Joe, go to the 'radical idea thread".
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TEPaul

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006, 09:00:16 PM »
Whether the soft greens of Medinah and on Tour are from Mother Nature or by design there is no question at all that soft greens are the single greatest "set-up" component that allows the elite caliber of golfer to score low.

Firm up putting greens to a point where elite players can't completely control aerial approach shots all day long and scoring will begin to rise. It's virtually inevitable.
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noonan

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 09:14:07 PM »
The greens may be soft, but if par is 70 than the leaders would only be 4 under.
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 12:34:46 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Kessler on August 18, 2006, 09:14:07 PM
The greens may be soft, but if par is 70 than the leaders would only be 4 under.

Very true, but besides 5, where can you find the other shot?
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006, 03:45:34 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Kessler on August 18, 2006, 09:14:07 PM
The greens may be soft, but if par is 70 than the leaders would only be 4 under.

And if the Queen had.....
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006, 03:57:51 PM »
The greens at Medinah continue to perform like dart boards.

It would seem that Mother Nature has taken a back seat to intentional preparation.
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2006, 04:19:28 PM »
Even Gary McCord figured it out, when he (just) described the greens as "soft and flat." No wonder they are making everything and can approach holes with impunity -- no fear of rolling off or away and down.  
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2006, 04:51:23 PM »
Quote from: redanman on August 19, 2006, 04:08:40 PM
Patrick

With all those trees, do you really think fast and firm is very doable without sub-air and the modern miracle groundskeeping equipment?

Honestly?

Yes,

The trees line the fairways, not the greens

The aerials from the blimp at Medinah are astounding.  I used  to live in Chi-town, they do love their trees there since they have no ground contour.

Maybe that thinking is a remnant of the effects of the Dutch Elm plague that struck Chicago decades ago

Worst I ever saw in Chicago (may be better now, haven't been there a few years) was Oak Park.  I used to play Medinah and Oak Park (Ross) with the same lovely gentleman who is no longer with us.

The other thing is that with the homoginizxation of the course, e,iminating blindness, flattening greens to allow speed, how can you expect "resistance"?

Without substantive slope and/or contour those greens provide less challenge than the practice putting green.

Length is almost immaterial to these guys.
This tournament has become a putting contest.
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2006, 08:49:54 PM »
Quote from: redanman on August 19, 2006, 08:46:18 PM
Tell me those trees*

-don't shade the greens

-don't compete with the greens

Fast-'n-soft is a bad combo

Having them flattened by a consultant (to make them smooth-'n-fast )was not a great idea for the greens either....

Still - all this considered, the cream is certainly on top, but it is just an amazingly boring golf tournament.  


Whoever first said "Welcome to Indian Wells" was spot on. (Feherty?)


Most of the green contours weren't changed.  1, 2, 13, 16, 17 and 18 are the only ones that have been touched.  If the greens weren't softer than my dish sponge and were rolling faster than 11, you would see a lot different greens and a lot different tournament.

"Boring golf tournament"  You have to be kidding me.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2006, 10:20:57 PM »
I guess they'll have to "tarp" the greens next, as they do in baseball and football
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is it Mother Nature or the PGA Tour ?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2006, 10:34:28 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on August 19, 2006, 10:20:57 PM
I guess they'll have to "tarp" the greens next, as they do in baseball and football

No, that wouldn't have helped.  They were soft before the rain.  The rain is ABSOLUTELY no excuse.
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