[Kerry Gray]

In general, as an average golfer I enjoy playing courses with a slope under 140. There are exceptions but that level of difficulty suits my "fun" factor.  
Wondered if slope rating ever comes into the thought process during design stage. Does an architect target a particular slope rating for a project? Are you asked by clients to build something in a particular range, say 135-140?
Does the slope rating enter into your thoughts and if so, how?
Thanks!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kerry,

I can honestly say I have not.  For the record, most of my courses slope out at 130 or so, but I have a few as high as 151.  I think I have designed the highest slope rated courses in both Kansas and Minnnesota.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

For the ones that are in the 150+ range, what are the features that get them up there?  Long forced carries?  Inpenetrable rough close to the fairways?  Small greens?  Many deep bunkers surrounding greens?  Many OB's close to fairways?  

At 150 they must be virtually unplayable (or at best no fun) for bogey or worse golfers.

If you haven't considered the likely Slope of the course, do you have your own rules of thumb about how bogey, and worse, golfers will play the course?  Or were they not a consideration on these courses.

[Jordan Wall]

Higher slope usually means really long with a lot of forced carries...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jordan,

I think you have it right.  First, the slope is from the back tees.  Colbert Hills at 151 is 7480 yards, and from the backs, most holes require 180 + carries.  We have wide corridors, but there are native grasses outside of that. I don't think the hazards or greens themselves are that difficult.

The Quarry is a bit less than that, and I recall they rated it while much of the fescue blends had been left high by the super.  The rating committee felt the course was very narrow, when in fact its not that way now.  So, they have the best of both worlds, they can advertise a high slope rating and the golfer comes off with a decent score.  Win win for everyone, I guess.

[Doug Siebert]

Kerry,

There's a big difference between a course with a rating of 68.0 and a slope of 141 and a rating of 74.0 and a slope of 141.  An average golfer could quite possibly have a enjoyable time on the former, but would be beaten down by the latter -- probably even if the slope was only 125.

You should be concentrating on the bogey rating (accessible via the usga.org website) if you want to determine whether a given set of tees is appropriate for you.  The slope is really just a measure of how far apart the course (scratch) rating and bogey rating are.  What does it matter to you if the two are far apart if the bogey rating is still reasonable for you?  A high slope sometimes just means that the course is really damn easy for scratch golfers and slightly above average in difficulty for bogey golfers.

I'd be surprised if architects were given target ranges for slope, but I'll bet if the owner wants a 'challenging' 'championship' course he might give some examples of what he's looking for.  Maybe he doesn't say "I want a slope over 150", but if he told the architect he wanted something as difficult as Pine Valley, that's probably what he'd end up with.

I think a lot of high slopes are somewhat accidental.  If you have a development driven course, the land least desireable for lots (low lying, environmentally sensitive, etc.) will be given to the architect.  You end up with many lateral hazard areas (if they want to speed play, lost ball country if they don't) lots of water, and probably corridors that are too narrow leading to plenty of easily accessible OB.  Generally these hazards are just far enough away that they don't hit the obstacle rating for scratch players much, but they are all too often in the line of fire for bogey golfers.  That's a recipe for an easy 145 slope.  And a course a wild hitter should never play a straight hitter on for money no matter how many extra strokes he's offered

[Kerry Gray]

Brian,
I believe the issues considered in evaluting a courses slope rating are available from the USGA website. I believe their are about 10  criteria. Length, forced carries, water hazzards, OB, fairway width etc.
Actually found a good article on the subject at the Canadian Golf Assoc site.
http://www.rcga.org/english/Handicapping/course_FAQ.asp

Doug,
Because I am a bogey golfer I find the slope rating usually gives me a good idea of how difficult the course will play for myself. Also a rough indicator of how many obstacles I may have to contend with during my round, the ole "lost ball" factor. The key is "in general," their are exceptions.  

[JohnV]

Kerry,

There's a big difference between a course with a rating of 68.0 and a slope of 141 and a rating of 74.0 and a slope of 141.  An average golfer could quite possibly have a enjoyable time on the former, but would be beaten down by the latter -- probably even if the slope was only 125.

The harder course plays 6 strokes tougher for the bogey golfer.  The bogey Rating is 94.2 for a 68.0/141 and 100.2 for 74.0/141.   Two courses with the same slope will have the same difference between the bogey ratings as they have between the course ratings.

BR = (Slope/5.381)+CR

Therefore, if the slope is the same, the number added to the course rating must be the same and the only difference would be the difference in Course Ratings.

Also, if the Slope were 125, the BR would be 97.2 for the 74.0 CR course.  So it would play 3 shots tougher than the 68.0/141 course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kerry:

Slope is an OK indicator of how tough a course will be for you - but it's not the best.  Of course you know what slope really measures, right?  It's the difference between course rating (how hard it is for the scratch) v. bogey rating (how hard it is for the bogey).  Oh, a high slope course will likely kick your ass, for sure.  But the BEST measure for how hard a course will be FOR YOU, and you alone, is bogey rating.

You can find this by looking up the course on GHIN.  Rely on that and you will know perfectly what to expect.

BTW this mis-perception is rampant.  JV and I lament about it all the time - me more than him.

TH

[Wayne_Kozun]

The harder course plays 6 strokes tougher for the bogey golfer.  The bogey Rating is 94.2 for a 68.0/141 and 100.2 for 74.0/141.   Two courses with the same slope will have the same difference between the bogey ratings as they have between the course ratings.

What is the definition of a bogey golfer in this context?  Is it a golfer with a handicap index of 18.0 so they would get 18 strokes from a scratch on a course with a slope of 113?  Or is it a golfer with an index of about 15.5 that would get 18 strokes from a scratch on the course that most of us play on a regular basis - i.e. a slope of about 130?

[Kyle Harris]

High slope not much fun
Intermediates lose balls
Pro shop sales increase

[JohnV]

The USGA Course Rating Manual defines the male bogey golfer as:

A male bogey golfer is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 20 on a course of standard difficulty.  He can hit tee shots an average of 200 yards and can reach a 370-yard hole in two shots at sea level.

So, he gets around 20 shots on a 113 slope course.  A little higher than most peoples idea of the bogey golfer, but the USGA believes that a course of "standard" difficulty would be a little harder for bogey golfer than the scratch player so he would get more than 18 shots.  His index would be between 19.6 and 20.4.

Jeff Brauer, your description of Colbert Hills from the back tees means that the Bogey Golfer couldn't actually play the course as he only carries it 180 with 20 yards of roll.  This leads to many big numbers if there is nowhere to layup short of those carries.

[Wayne_Kozun]

So, he gets around 20 shots on a 113 slope course.  A little higher than most peoples idea of the bogey golfer, but the USGA believes that a course of "standard" difficulty would be a little harder for bogey golfer than the scratch player so he would get more than 18 shots.  His index would be between 19.6 and 20.4.

Thanks for the info John.  I am surprised that the handicap is that high.  Maybe I am spoiled but I almost never play a course of less than 130 slope so in those instances the "bogey" golfer actually has a course handicap of around 24.  My home club has a rating of 133 from the white tees so a "bogey" golfer would get about 24 shots making him almost a bogey and a half golfer.

[Doug Ralston]

John;

Colbert Hills is 'only' slope 131 from 6000 yd. Step forward if you can't do the forced carries. What IS the male ego that makes golfers who know better still play 'the tips'?

Doug

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