Bunker changes. Norman vs. Dye

[Jeff_Lewis]

Medalist Golf Club was originally designed by the team of Norman and Dye and it certainly had many of the hallmarks of a Dye course. Among them was a number of par 4 and par 5 holes, where attempting to carry a hazard of some kind would shorten the ultimate route to the hole. Risk going into the sand or the water and one's reward is an easier approach or perhaps the chance of going into a green in 2. Norman has been redesigning the course for the past several years. Virtually every hole has now been changed from the original course. One of the hallmarks of Norman's style has been to take bunkers out of the inside of these elbows and put them on the outside. So, right to left holes now have fairway bunkers right, where they used to be on the left. Now a player starts his ball at a bunker and should be trying to work it away from the hazard.

Which approach do you guys find more appealing? Hazards inside the elbow or outside?

[corey miller]

For me it is definately on the "inside of the elbow".  Wasn't one of the critcisms of medalist the dificulty and penal nature of the course, it seems it will play much easier with the hazards as you now describe them.

Seems to me more strategy and choices when there are (carry hazards) bite off what you can choose rather than hazards that i am aiming at.

[Matt Kardash]

Hasn't Ran taken down the profile of The Medalist on the website due to Norman's changes? If Ran took it down i can only imagine Norman's changes were for the worse.

Yeah I'm with Pete on this one...Inside is better than outside

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I played with some fellows from The Medalist this week and had a discussion which boils down to:

How many times does he have to modify a hole before he gets it right ?

Is that an indication that he does or doesn't know what he is doing ?

Are his design principles changing ?

Does a member who joined the course because he liked it, for what it was, feel disenfranchised by playing at a course a few years later, that is noticeably different from the one he joined ?

When will the modifications cease ?

To address the bunker side issue, I think you have to see the hole and the trouble that exists on it before making the call on the inside or outside of the elbow.

[Will E]

Pat,
Interesting questions indeed.
How would you answer them?
I don't want to assume I know.

I haven't seen Medalist since 99, and then I thought it was borderline too tough. There were a couple of holes that I thought were outstanding, leading me to hope Norman would turn out to be a great designer. Do you think he has gotten better with age?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shooter,

I haven't seen the current round of changes, but when I played there last year I thought it had been overly softened, and that # 18 looked like Fazio redesigned it.  I wasn't enarmored of # 17 either.

[SL_Solow]

I haven't seen the changes and, from the description, suspect I will not like them.  However, I smell a double standard.  Ross' lifelong adjustments at Pinehurst 2 are part of the mystique associated with the course and the man.  Similar stories about Oakmont in the early days.  How long until those architects "got it right"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL Solow,

There may be a significant distinction between fine tuning and
redesigning and rebuilding.

I don't think Ross rebuilt a particular green site four times before he felt it was acceptable, especially a par 3.

I think the distinction is in the scope of the work.

[Ran Morrissett]

Jeff,

I didn't gain an appreciation of doglegs where the play is often to the outside of the dogleg until the past couple of years. Thus, to answer your question, I think a mix of the doglegs that you describe is best (i.e. have a hole bunkered like RM West 6 and Maidstone 17 on the same course).

HOWEVER, what doesn't make sense is to move a bunker from the inside to the outside of the dogleg without also changing up by the green as well such as the greenside bunkering/green angle/etc.(assuming that the hole was well designed to begin with, which was certainly the case at The Medalist). And as best I know, what Norman has done back in the fairway isn't being matched by the work around the green.

If that perception is correct, then Norman is just throwing up air balls, which is exactly why I removed The Medalist course profile after seeing the course this past winter.

Cheers,

[SL_Solow]

Your point is well taken Pat

[McCloskey]

The location of the fairway bunkers in directly dependent on the shape, bunkering, entrance to the green.
Inside bunkering is more strategic, generally speaking, whereas outside bunkers are more directional and framing, generally.
All bunkering should start with a strategic concept and relate to that concept throughout the entire hole.
Therefore, there is no correct answer to your question.