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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
There had been a quite heated discussion about the bunker placement at Sebonack that I think was originally intended to generate discussion but resulted in, shall we say, an argument.  I would like to ask a question of the Treehouse, and it is a question, not a suggestion.  Here goes: What if Sebonack was built exactly as it is today with one difference; the bunkers were designed by Rees Jones instead of Doak/Nicklaus; they would still be in the same locations, the same depth, etc., but would appear far different.  Would the course be as highly regarded by those of us on GCA, or would it be rejected simply because of the style of bunkers that were used?  Remember, I do not profess to be any sort of an expert nor a fan of Rees Jones, rather, this question is only being brought up for the purpose of discussion.  If you don't like the question or think it's stupid, just say so and go on; I won't be offended.

Ed_Baker

Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2006, 10:49:33 AM »
Jerry,

I don't think the question is stupid at all.
Hypothetically, the same locations and depth? Can't see Rees putting bunkers in the same place as 'Ol Doakie & Jack, but if.. the situation was as you posed..... and the holes remained the same.... ummm, Yes I still think the course would be highly regarded on here, it is a fabulous piece of property.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2006, 11:14:24 AM »
Jerry,

My experience is that Doak puts bunkers where the terrain calls out for them; cutting them into upslopes which magnify their prominence. Rees on the other hand puts bunkers where they interfere with the current drives of Tour Pros from the back tees.

For example, on the redo at Torrey Pines South, there is not a single fairway bunker that is meant to complicate matters for the higher handicap golfer; they are ALL positioned to menace the Tour Pros. Should the USGA ever act to rein in the ball or I&B, the positioning of these bunkers would be totally irrelevent.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 03:21:34 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2006, 11:17:07 AM »
My preference is for the more natural look. I prefer that it looks like it has always been there. Doak comes closer to this than Jones.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2006, 11:56:27 AM »
Diety worship?

In my view, the course would rate as highly in all other aspects other than aesthetics, which would be slightly down.

I think appreciating devine inspired nature is worshiping a different diety than Bill was referring to.

:)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

HamiltonBHearst

Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2006, 12:09:21 PM »


Stupid question Jerry.  Seems like Redanman is the only honest guy here ???

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2006, 12:20:13 PM »
Well, at least I have some answers.  Perhaps I could rephrase the question to narrow the issue.  Suppose the bunkers were in the same location, same depth, etc., but had the appearance similar to those at Nicklaus courses such as Muirfield, would the opinions of the course change? Mind you I recently played Dismal River where Nicklaus used the irregular shaped bunkers with natural grasses and I thought they were quite well done with many already existing before construction of the course.  

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2006, 01:05:26 PM »


Stupid question Jerry.  Seems like Redanman is the only honest guy here ???

 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Cirba

Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2006, 01:17:20 PM »
Jerry,

Here's the real answer.  

If Rees Jones built a course with bunkering in the same spots as at Sebonack he would get tons of positive credit here.

He built Olde Kinderhook near Albany NY which was lauded unequivocally here by me, Matt Ward, Geoffrey Childs, redanman, Pete Galea, and virtually everyone else who's played it.

The problem is, he usually doesn't build that type of course, nor does he normally do things like center bunkering, diagonal angles, or interestingly creative greens.  

His bunker shaping also often leaves a lot to be desired and he seems to often move earth without much in the way of variety or naturalness.  

If, in your hypothetical example, he built some flossy bunkers on a rugged site, some might question whether they fit in well, but I think you'd have more praise heaped his way than criticisms.

To say that some here have been critical of Rees simply because his bunkers are not cool looking or rugged is simply not true.   Like the massive behind on a walrus, however, many simply aim there because it's the easiest to hit on a big target.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Question - Not a Suggestion - But Please Give Me An Answer
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2006, 01:22:14 PM »
Mike: Thanks for the answer to my question - I guess I didn't phrase it well.  I wasn't gearing it toward worshipping particular architects rather whether we were knocking courses if they didn't have one particular style of bunkering.  

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