Ran:
I don't agree with you premise about the two-shotters at PD being better than SH. You mentioned the 8th at PD and that's the really only strong long par-4. At SH I can name no less then three other holes besides Tom' Elbow -- the 6th, 9th, 12th and 18th are among the long holes. And, when wind conditions are up there's no way all will play downwind.
In the mid-range category you have the 1st, 4th, 10th and 15th. In the short range you have the 8th and 13th -- granted PD would win the last category but in an overall sense -- the edge goes easily to SH.
I only hope the fairway widths at SH are not narrowed unreasonably for the upcoming Open in '04. SH should play as intended and not bastardized for the sake of a few egos. The course has a number of defenses that will deter the wayward play.
Be most interested in knowing what course you would favor a game at?
Brad:
As I said on my initial post if you were just to consider the holes Perry Maxwell created I have no issue with Prairie Dunes being a course of "heavyweight" status. However, the holes put forward by his son Press, although certainly wonderfully done, I believe, are just a notch lower than what the old man provided.
When you talk about Cypress Point and Prairie Dune and the degree of toughness that's a question that many will answer based on their own game's and how they've fared. I don't doubt that when the usual Kansas w-i-n-d is blowing you have your work cut out for you. But, let's not downplay Cypress as being an easy day at the park. I also don't see the middle stretch in the back nine at PD to be in the same league as the others you find there.
Also, when you list the course rating and slope -- I think it's high time the MGA went back out to Shinnecock and really looked at the back tees and what's out there NOW. The course is easily a full shot higher.
One last thought Brad -- ask many of the mid-handicappers where they would like to play and you get the names of Maidstone and National on the tips of their tongues. Plenty of fun can be had at both of them and there is less pressure on the tee shot. Sure, they do appreciate SH but they also know it will kick their butt big time if they aren't really prepared.
George Pazin:
Your question implies the old game of turning originally designed par-5 holes into par-4's. I imagine you are suggesting doing that for the 7th and 17th at PD. I reject that because it's a manufactured way to artifically inject "toughness" by then claiming how more demanding the golf course is. I have never really liked when the USGA does it for Open sites and I believe you measure the course by its diversity of holes. If you eliminate the par-5 in its entitety from PD then you don't have the diversity, I believe, is fundamental to the issue of well rounded holes leading to an overall course.
I think you are taking what I am saying about PD as some sort of lack of respect. Quite the contrary -- I believe the course is among the 25-30 best courses in the USA. I just believe the totality of what one faces at SH to be more intense and comprehensive in overall shotmaking requirements. I also agree with what wsmorrison said about the genius behind William Flynn's efforts. You don't get many easy rolls at SH -- okay, so they're not PD, but let's not think you get a fress pass on the putting surfaces on the course in Southampton.
Again, the differences are really very small but I have yet to hear anyone tell me through some form of persuasion that SH is not the best day-to-day layout we have in the USA.
Tom MacWood:
Your mentioning of WF as more intense from the standpoint of overall difficulty is a matter of debate. Clearly, WF / West is very demanding. However, I measure "greatness" beyond the category of sheer difficulty -- although you and others may find that hard to believe.
I have said many times in the past I can't think of a golf course that puts as much pressure on the second as Winged Foot / West. The course has very little breathing room and it doesn't need a hurricane to make the day interesting. No doubt -- major league intense. At the same time the diversity of true shotmaking -- working the ball from side to side, estimating how to play the bounce is part and parcel at Shinnecock and for my money rates a slight edge over the gem from Mamaroneck. Look, I don't doubt that Winged Foot is man-sized golf course, but a parksland course can only take you so far when you stack it up against the natural topography of SH and the manner by which the land brings the holes alive there.
You can't also underestimate the natural elements and the role they play. I can also give you situations with weather that would make you cringe at SH -- how many remember the 1st round weather during the '86 Open? Only one man, I believe it was Bob Tway, equalled par and if my memory serves, the Golden Bear actually lost his tee shot on the 10th that stormy day. Let's also not forget that 270 has been broken at Winged Foot / West by Davis Love III in the '97 PGA -- absolutely great stuff. No one has cracked the 275 barrier at SH yet. The lowest thus far at SH is 279 shot by Ray Floyd in winning the '86 Open. Pavin finished at level par in '95.
Tom, I can make a very strong case that the duo of SH and WF / West is as good as twosome as any other in the USA but if I had to choose where I'd rather play than anywhere else, no contest -- SH.
One last question -- if you had to choose where you'd play?