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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« on: August 10, 2006, 09:15:53 PM »
I know that the requirement for becoming a golf architect is to find someone that will let you spend their money.....and we are rated from bad to mediocre to great by the aficianados.  
Is the requirement, gaining access to a rating panel....being published...or what?????  
Is there anything in this business that is not opinion????
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2006, 09:28:18 PM »
Mike,

Hmm, I guess anyone who can set up a blog is one, no?

Seriously, I do respect Whitten, Klein and Geoff S (listed in order of when they became respected as experts,) for their ability to, well, become respected as experts.  I also appreciate the focus they put on our business.  If that means they have to have opioions about it, well then I guess they just have to let them rip!  

I kinda like their top 100 lists, even if I don't take them seriously (Whitten and Klein) and historical research (Whitten and Shack)  As you might expect, I cringe at some of their weekly columns, which I suspect come with some pressure to be "hard hitting journalism."

To answer your question, I guess I don't know what it takes to be a golf architecture aficianado.  I suspect those people are kind of like porn or obscenity - you can't define it but you know it when you see it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2006, 10:53:42 PM »
 Jeff,
I agree with your take but......
"You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars. That's what's important. If you're a rock journalist - first, you will never get paid much. But you will get free records from the record company. And they'll buy you drinks, you'll meet girls, they'll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs... I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends. These are people who want you to write sanctimonious stories about the genius of the rock stars, and they will ruin rock and roll and strangle everything we love about it. "
Lester Bangs
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2006, 11:00:19 PM »
I think the answer to your question is those whose opinions are widely respected.

However, I kinda think the title of this thread is a bit misleading.

ANYONE who notices differences from one course to another and can discuss the subject matter intelligibily is a golf architecture aficionado, IMHO.

They might not know diddly about blogs or journalism or whatever, but they know golf course architecture.

I mean, what is the difference between an aficionado and a hobbyist?

Is there one?




 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 11:02:35 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2006, 11:16:42 PM »
Michael,
Yep, you are correct.....so why not a Magazine for all of these opinions in the likeness of Cigar Afficianado...instead of just this dead guy stuff....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2006, 11:20:00 PM »
Jeff,
I agree with your take but......
"You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars. That's what's important. If you're a rock journalist - first, you will never get paid much. But you will get free records from the record company. And they'll buy you drinks, you'll meet girls, they'll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs... I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends. These are people who want you to write sanctimonious stories about the genius of the rock stars, and they will ruin rock and roll and strangle everything we love about it. "
Lester Bangs

Are you watching "Almost Famous?"  Good movie - sort of!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2006, 11:33:15 PM »
Jeff,
I agree with your take but......
"You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars. That's what's important. If you're a rock journalist - first, you will never get paid much. But you will get free records from the record company. And they'll buy you drinks, you'll meet girls, they'll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs... I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends. These are people who want you to write sanctimonious stories about the genius of the rock stars, and they will ruin rock and roll and strangle everything we love about it. "
Lester Bangs

Are you watching "Almost Famous?"  Good movie - sort of!
Watching it for 2nd time tonite....great movie....
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 11:34:09 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2006, 11:35:27 PM »
Jeff,
I agree with your take but......
"You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars. That's what's important. If you're a rock journalist - first, you will never get paid much. But you will get free records from the record company. And they'll buy you drinks, you'll meet girls, they'll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs... I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends. These are people who want you to write sanctimonious stories about the genius of the rock stars, and they will ruin rock and roll and strangle everything we love about it. "
Lester Bangs

Are you watching "Almost Famous?"  Good movie - sort of!


Almost Famous, not "Good movie-sort of"  but a great movie.

Bob

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2006, 11:40:32 PM »
Michael,
Yep, you are correct.....so why not a Magazine for all of these opinions in the likeness of Cigar Afficianado...instead of just this dead guy stuff....

Mike,

Are you clowning me or are you being serious?  

Are you proposing a new and different kind of golf architecture magazine?  

What do you think of Nicklaus magazine?

I would LOVE to see a better iteration of Links.  That mag has gone downhill.  

I think it is difficult to identify the golf course aficionado market.  Who are these people?  What do they have in common?  Which advertisers will pay our salaries?  Whose advertising will actually address our market and become successful???  

We of GCA.com encompass all walks of life.  I bartend.  Slag use to work in a steel mill.  RJ was a cop.  Tommy is an electrician.  George makes T-shirts.  Childs fights cancer.  Not sure about Mucci, or if TEPaul even works at all ;), but these men certainly know their stuff for sure.

I deeply respect their opinions.  

At the heart of the matter each of us seek different things in our golf courses.  My "swamis" identify themselves naturally over time, and I tend to follow their collective wisdom in leiu of someone who likes, for example, Rees Jones style courses.

I might even like a Rees Jones style course, but if given the choice of playing one, or something RJ Daley told me is much better five miles down the road, I follow Daley.  10 times out of 10, to cite the standard measure of preference around here :D
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2006, 11:40:40 PM »
is on tnt right now
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2006, 12:16:40 AM »
Quote
I might even like a Rees Jones style course, but if given the choice of playing one, or something RJ Daley told me is much better five miles down the road, I follow Daley.  10 times out of 10, to cite the standard measure of preference around here

Well Mike, I really am flattered.  But, maybe the above is sort of what Mike Young is getting at...  

No question in my mind, I am an aficianado.  But, all I really need to be one is a ball, a club, a paid green fee (unless I'm a rater  ;) ;D ::) ) an enthusiasm for the subject, a web location to spout off, etc.  I know what you mean by the swamis identifying themselves over time, because their enthusiasm and possibly some of their sensibilities based on evident study of the subject surfaces, the more we discuss things.  No question there are those sort of fellows hanging around GCA.com (including you the bartender that also has worked in the dirt).

But, when you said you'd pass up a Rees Jones if a bloke like me said something is better down the road, 10 out of 10 times... well now that makes me keenly aware of the responsibility of gushing on and on about any certain golf courses in terms of comparing one archie's work to another as an aficianado.

Maybe the better word for Mike Y to use is: what makes a golf architecture "critic"?  

As an aficianado, I think it is perhaps better to take the positive role and make positive comments about various courses we get an opportunity to play, when we feel the course merits positive comments.  It wouldn't bother me if you acted affirmatively on a positive recommendation about a particular course.  But, if you excluded a course only because I am an aficianado, well that might make me uncomfortable as the one spouting off, if I went negative.

But, to be a critic, one needs some sort of mantle of authority (it seems to me).  Then, one can and should be negative (when poor work requires such adverse comments) to be critical of an archie's work.  But as the critic, one needs more than a ball, club, paid green fee, and enthusiasm.  One needs a measure of fair dinkum education and bona fides.  That education can come from years of playing and studying various archie styles, reading on the subject, going to actual schooling on the subject via formal L.A. or some sort of training in GCA seminars, and , working on GC construction, etc.  Various combinations of these things can work.  

I think the wise archie knows his trade because he listens to the aficianado swamis and considers the source, but hopes that the real bona fide critics will be fair and responsible.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2006, 12:58:04 AM »
It isn't how many experiences you have, it's how you come through them that matters.

Knowing what makes you tick, and seeing how others miss the big picture, focusing on thier subjective, goes a long way in understanding and leads to being an afficionado.

Doak recently made the statement that a golf course is the medium for the sport, not the game itself. Those who don't yet understand that simple principle, are just supplying their subjective opinions to what they like. Usually based on how they played.


Otherwise, I don't have a clue what makes one.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What makes one a golf architecture aficianado???
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2006, 07:32:43 AM »
Michael,
Yep, you are correct.....so why not a Magazine for all of these opinions in the likeness of Cigar Afficianado...instead of just this dead guy stuff....

Mike,

Are you clowning me or are you being serious?  

Are you proposing a new and different kind of golf architecture magazine?  

What do you think of Nicklaus magazine?

I would LOVE to see a better iteration of Links.  That mag has gone downhill.  

I think it is difficult to identify the golf course aficionado market.  Who are these people?  What do they have in common?  Which advertisers will pay our salaries?  Whose advertising will actually address our market and become successful???  

We of GCA.com encompass all walks of life.  I bartend.  Slag use to work in a steel mill.  RJ was a cop.  Tommy is an electrician.  George makes T-shirts.  Childs fights cancer.  Not sure about Mucci, or if TEPaul even works at all ;), but these men certainly know their stuff for sure.

I deeply respect their opinions.  

At the heart of the matter each of us seek different things in our golf courses.  My "swamis" identify themselves naturally over time, and I tend to follow their collective wisdom in leiu of someone who likes, for example, Rees Jones style courses.

I might even like a Rees Jones style course, but if given the choice of playing one, or something RJ Daley told me is much better five miles down the road, I follow Daley.  10 times out of 10, to cite the standard measure of preference around here :D

Mike,
I am not clowning.  I'm just tired of hearing about how great all the dead guy stuff and the new rendtions are.  You see I like Rees Jones stuff, Nicklaus stuff, McKenzie stuff, Ross stuff, Doak Stuff,Fazio stuff, my stuff, smyers stuff,Coore stuff,and probably even Brauer stuff but I don't think I have ever played one.  I'm sort of like a guy that likes food...you know Italian, chinese, McDonalds,American.....I like all of it some of the time and could eat some of it all of the time but I am not closed minded.  
I think an afficianado is more open minded than a critic.....and sometimes I see this site as closed minded re some architects...and ....I resepct the guys that have worked to be able to make a living writing about architecutre but IMHO it is often not done with an open mind.  Some architects have no chance with some of these guys....they are condemned b4 even seeing their work....
sort of like a football coach that once told me....he said you know I have won four State championships and now that I am older no one calls me coach but you do "one" guy one time and they call you "gay" from now on. (the wording has been changed above)....we know he's right...
I am just saying this site needs to be more open minded if it is to become afficianados.  IMO
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 07:34:23 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"