Par 3 concepts in Par 4's

[Matt_Cohn]

Biarritz
Redan
Drop
Short
Eden
Island
And quite a few more.

Why haven't these classic design concepts utilized more often in par 4 holes?

Isn't a biarritz green a great way to end a very long par 4?
How about an eden green on a mid-length two-shotter?
If a redan green defends a hole from the tee, then why not from the fairway?

To my knowledge, classic par 3 concepts seem very underutilized on longer holes.

[James Edwards]

Matt,

I agree with you in principle, but If you hit a big drive and it leaves you a short club into a redan inspired green, then its rendered useless - isnt it?

[ForkaB]

James

Not really.  Viz. the 15th at Dornoch--325, Redanish green, complete conundrum when hitting in from 50 yards or so--pitch it?  if so, where do you lande it?  putt it?  pitch and run?  low punch with check?

Not to mention......skull it over the green, shank it into the RH bunker, chili dip it and start all over again..........

[James Bennett]

Rich

I agree with you.

There seems to be a difference between the redan green and what is often called a 'redan-inspired' green.  Many 'redan-inspired' greens do not have the severity of valley (? any valley) in the approach, and are probably more like a 'gibralter-inspired' green. That is, a less undulating approach.

James B

[James Edwards]

I thought the hole concept of a redan hole came from the par 3 movement ??  

...being one tee ground where everyone plays from so the feeeding option can be executed by all players?  I seem to remember the direct route at NB was a no-go for me anyway?

[ForkaB]

James E

The feeder option is just that, an option, and not really the preferred one for the very good player, both at the great Redans and for the 2nd shot to the 15th at Dornoch.  See the recent Yale thread for confirmation.

R

[James Edwards]

Thanks Rich for the information, but when i played Shinnecock, NGLA and NB i hit the run in as well as the direct path to the pin and ended up closer all 3 times with the run in. Maybe im just a worm-burner specialist by nature  

So for the record are you agreeing with Matt or disagreeing that these concepts are being utilised ??

[ForkaB]

James

I only hit worm-burners by mistake!

As to the question, I can think of a lot of "island" greens on 4s and 5s as well as a few "biarritzis" and "redans."  Don't think that "edens" would work and I really don't know what a "short" is except, well, short.  If that's the case, most par-4s have "short" greens since the guys are hitting wedge into them these days!

I think the redan concept works great, but architects don't seem keen on designing too many front to back sloping greens, probably becuase the punters don't like them.

[Kai Hulkkonen]

Wouldn't an "Eden" work well on longish par-4? It could play something like the "Road" with even the best tempted to settle for 4-5.

[Troy Alderson]

Matt,

In Molalla, Oregon is Arrowhead Golf Club owned and operated by the Superintendents family.  I forget which par 4 it is, but the green is definately a redan as true as can be on a par 4.  I like the idea and its a great way to incorporate multiple Redan, Biarritz, Eden, or Island greens on one golf course without playing the exact same hole again and again.

Troy

[TEPaul]

"Why haven't these classic design concepts utilized more often in par 4 holes?"

Matt:

They have but apparently people don't notice. For instance, the first hole at The Creek Club in Long Island (Macdonald/Raynor 1922) has always had a redan green on the first hole which is a par 4 of less than 400 yards.

[James Edwards]

TP,

Is the Green above the approach?

[TEPaul]

No, the hole is on relatively flat ground with the green built into ground that naturally falls somewhat right to left and away at the end. There's a liberal approach and a really good and large shoulder (kicker) front right and all along the right side of the green. It pays to get into the correct angle for the approach unless one has a very lofted iron in his hands but that brings in to play some cross bunkers in the fairway. Missing this green right, just like missing and regular redan green right generally spells bogie for anyone.

I feel that too many assume these types of green designs like a redan green need to be exact copies and need to provide basically the "traditional" shot.

I don't think that's the point at all----these types of green designs can by used effectively on all kinds of holes if the designer merely uses his imagination and works through some effective strategies of various ways to play them in the over-all concept of the hole that're interesting, thoughtful and challenging. Obviously, on the first hole at The Creek Club Macdonald/Raynor did that with a redan green design.

Matt Cohn's thread question is a very good one.

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