The more movement the better.....

[paul cowley]

The more movement the better...... not necessarily the size of a greens contours, but the amount of distance a ball moves over the green.

That is what I find most exciting when it occurs....the sight of the ball reacting and moving over the greens surface, especially when its a result of a shot that is hit off a front or side kick on, or from a backstop or an internal contour.

 I only get this sense of excitement when it's the result of the holes design..... and a well struck shot that one executes.


Its great when it occurs on a natural green site, and still great if it occurs on a site that is created to look natural.

...and it is still really good on some sites that are not natural, and do not look natural......thanks to Raynor et all.

Wee need more of it.

[Adam Clayman]

Paul, Don't count out those old style tilted saucers. I too love to watch the internal contours affect the balls vector. But I also appreciate a green that slants the way of the topography upon which it rests.

The 7th at York Country Club (as well as others there) is such a green. Very similar to the old seventh at Big Run, pre-butchering.

And since it's you Paul, The old fifth at Pebble used both methods to great affect. The contour from the back side of the front right bunker was magnificiantly deceptive and highly influential.

[paul cowley]

Yes Adam....that was the fith all right, but I don't seem to remember being able to see the ball at work.
...but then again I might be considerably shorter than you .

[Adam Clayman]

Paul, A ball putted from below the hole to a right middle pin would break towards the back of the green. Amazing, since one thinks the slope is so severe from back to front.

The aspects that I find confounding are when those internal conturs are not visible, even after closer analysis.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

To get this kind of thing to occur in a remarkably extrapolated way and within reason basically takes 2-3 things;

1. Greens that have some nice contour and movement to them
2. Green surface firmness of the kind that lightly dents to a good approach shot.
3. Greens of a speed in the stimp differential of 10-11.

That'll do it and do it remarkably well. We call those last two steps "turning the lights up on good architecture" (through a relatively simple applied maintenance practice process).  

[paul cowley]

Guys....what a stupid I am!

What I was trying to describe was ball movement on a green as viewed from a remote vantage point.....either from a shot hit from a tee or from the fairway, and the balls reaction on the greens surface when viewed from afar.

Sorry about this ....but I do appreciate the confidence you have shown in that I might have an inkling of what I am talking about .

....so I guess that with this clarification the intent of the original thread still stands...

[Adam Clayman]

The sixth at Riviera sounds like the epitome of what you initially meant?

Others of note,
 #4 & #17 at Spyglas Hill

[BCrosby]

Paul -

Absolutely. One of my fondest memories of Sand Hills was watching approach shots tracking across the greens. I recall the greens on nos. 2, 3, 6, 8, 16 where balls seemed to track from one part of the green to another - as if they had a will of their own. And until I'd played the hole a couple of times, I didn't see most of them.

I recall pulling a PW approach to the left side of the 16th green and watching it trundle for about 20 feet this way and that until it stopped six inches from the cup. I wish I could say I had played it that way. But watching it as I walked to the green was a thrill.

It's great stuff.

Bob  

[paul cowley]

Thank you Bob...and if you and Adam don't mind, maybe both of you could take over as spokepersons for the remainder of this thread.....I think I need a glass of wine .