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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« on: July 07, 2006, 02:39:29 AM »
or is the clubhouse worth more than the course? I say yes to both. I went by Sand Pines today and it is worse than I remember it being 10 years ago. I think the citizens of Florence deserve more than this sad excuse for a golf course in some of the best dunes land in America. They are now almost finsihed with a clubhouse than should have a good or at least decent golf course attached to it. This is a low rarely hit by a well known architect on a great piece of land. There are few if any good holes and the site plan screams bad parkland golf at its worse. Yes it is better than no golf course but that is it. Troon golf must be desparate for jobs to take this loser. Tommy gave it a 0 on a 1 to 10 scale and I agree.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 02:40:13 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 08:49:59 AM »
But Jordan loved it!   ;D
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 10:43:39 AM »
John,
Certainly it hasn't given the city the boost it thought it would, and that to me is certainly Sandpines: Golf On The Oregon Dunes failing.

For the record, my score on it was a "1" simply because I couldn't give it a "0". and while in hindsight that might seem harsh to some, from every aspect of the course it is a failure and that pains me because my beloved Florence, a place where I vacationed with my family for years before there was even the thought of a Sandpines, deserved better. At the very least that property, from those magnificent dunes which were workable (tough but workable) to the 10 minute routing of a course that looks as if it was the very last thing on the particular architects mind. I've long maintained that he truely does love architecture as much as he says he does that he should go back there and redo the place free of charge, expenses included. Just to eleviate the bad will it has created from people such as myself that slam the place.

Yes, Florence deserved better. Much better. who knows, maybe Mike Keiser could buy it and hire someone who actually cares and create a better design for a Oregon Dunes Trail.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 11:47:55 AM »
I know Sandpines is not well thought of here. The primary reason is the lost opportunity, which I agree with. However, if you compare it to average golf in western Oregon, I think it comes out above average. For example, lets define Shadow Hills (home of the Nationwide Tour stop here in Oregon) as average. Who would not agree that Sandpines is better than Shadow Hills? Why isn't Shadow Hills giving the Eugene area a bad name?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 11:51:34 AM »
Is Sandpines an average site? I saw it again Sunday and was amazed at all of the wondrous land around it.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 12:13:03 PM »
Having never seen more than photos of the course, the following is purely conjecture.

The Golf Digest star rating is 4.5, is it not?  This being the yardstick most closely tied to general public opinion...

While I concede that the course is essentially the GCA poster child for all golf course-directed hatred, it seems that something must be going right there to earn such a rating - even if it remains unimpressive, and sometimes downright offensive, to some within the ranks of the 1500.

So I guess my response is that I do not think that Florence is given a bad name by Sandpines - post on a non-GCA board and I am certain someone will recommend it to anyone visiting the general area.

Again, I've never been near the place, but I think here we are guilty of projecting our keen eye senses onto the golfing masses when stating our concern for the plight of Florence - one would think the course was a working landfill, when in reality I am certain that there are thousands of non GCA types that consider it a treasure.

Just my $0.02 - and for my $0.03 I'll note that I'm in no rush to actually seek it out for a round, but were I in Florence for a day, I'd pony up.  Hope that's not contagious!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 12:46:09 PM »
Florence always had people coming for nongolf reasons. Sandpines got built. A few people went to Florence for golf. Bandon got built. The few people going to Florence for golf are now going to Bandon. Sandpines probably has no effect on Florence's name. Florence has a lot going for it without Sandpines.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jordan Wall

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 01:14:13 PM »
Sandpines makes anything, including the city, look bad.
It just does.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 01:58:18 PM »
Please don't mistake golf architectural criticism for popular culture. The average tourist has no notion of the golf course. We were up there this weekend; dune buggies and motor bikes were everywhere, every hotel/motel room booked out. As far as the town is concerned it has two pleasant golf courses; that's all they need to know. Only 1 of 12 Americans plays golf, probably only about 1 of 100 visitors to Florence, if that. The golf course is surely a lost opportunity, but it has no negative effect on the town, though a good course could have been a boon.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 06:15:29 PM by Brad Klein »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 05:27:17 PM »
I whole heartedly agree with that. Florence as a town doesn't need Sandpines. It's the other way around. I'll vouch for the dune buggy rides and other fun stuff to do there like hang our at the Grape Leaf eating stinky cheese and drinking fine grape juice. Most of my family love the fishing, so much so we stay in this really cool family-run resort with these cool fishing cabins on Siltcoos. they know the Naccarato/Lenow family so well, that they worried how to break the news to us when they had to come and tell us that my Father, who missed that particular year--had a heart attack.

All of the people of Florence are simply the finest people you would ever want to meet, and not much different then the people who live and work at Bandon Dunes. The majority of them, usually small business owners who recognize my entire family when we come back for our visit, which have drastically been reduced in the last years when the my family moved back to LA after 34 years of being in Oregon.

They also watched the Sandpines project sprout up in front of their eyes in great hopes that it would bring more commerce and create more jobs. It didn't.

No florence doesn't have a bad name because of Sandpines, but it is a great missed opportunity to create something special. I can only think that when the designer of Sandpines sees the success of Bandon Dunes, just shrivels up in pain knowing they took it for granted--because they did.

It's really simple too. come back, redo the course and create some interesting stuff that I know he is capable of doing and let the world know about it. I can only hope something like that would gather the attention of those who wish to visit the entire Oregon Coast, knowing that they can stop here, stop there and stop even further up near the Washington border for GREAT golf.

What a great thing that would be. A golf trail in Oregon that is as groundbreaking for Golf as Lewis & Clark's was for the discovery of the West coast.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 06:36:27 PM »
Just out of curiosity for those who know, if they are struggling as implied in a few posts, how and why did they decide to and come up with the money to build a clubhouse?

Has a nicer clubhouse ever driven more play to a remote course?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 06:42:20 PM »
Because the hope remains that they can become a viable money maker. Certainly it isn't making the waves which they thought it would. Last I heard that you could play there for $35.00 during peak season during the week. now that may have changed, it is to my understanding tha tthe orioginal owners really are the ones that lost here. BIG.  I'm sure the new owners got the course pretty reasonable, hence the ability to create a clubhouse.

If indeed its a big one, well, then it must double as a wishing well....

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 06:42:45 PM »
By the way Jeff, I do think that is a good question.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 06:57:48 PM »
Thanks, Tommy.....

I have seen the numbers on clubhouse business and it ain't pretty. Many courses only profit in food service from the vending machines, and the next profit level is the cold sandwich bar. Once you add kitchen stuff, its a money suck.

I had someone propose a bigger clubhouse for weddings and banquets once.  A big kitchen and large room for tables costs over $2 Mil.  At current interest rates, that's $17,000 per month in nut.   Even assuming each dinner served nets $10 after direct costs, you would need to serve 1700 dinners a month, or have a 200 plus banquet on virtually every available weekend night.  

Most banquet facilities just don't come close to filling every spot.  There can't be enough rubber chicken dinners served in Florence - or half of Oregon - to make that pay.

Even a $1Mil, 6000 SF clubhouse really nets no new revenue for the course, but adds $8500 a month to the ops expense - probably almost $2 per round.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 07:03:25 PM »
Jeff,
I knew it was a dry well, but I didn't know it was that dry!

Makes me appreciate the simplicity of Rustic Canyon's much bashed clubhouse even more. (personally, I think it is perfect for a public course)

If it was up to me, they would still be operating out of the original trailer. David Kelly and I were once sitting right next to that trailer out there one afternoon after playing, resting up before another nine holes or something like that and we both looked at each other and said in two years we were going to be looking back at wishing for that particular Rustic Canyon one day. Little did we know EXACTLY how accurate that statement was!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 07:03:44 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 10:06:00 PM »
Actually I think it was the second owners who took the bath.  The original Japanese owner sold the course and then go it back on some kind of foreclosure.  Who owns the course now, I have no idea.  

The course actually has a few nice holes, #6, 8 and 9 are passable.  The truly unfortunate set of 16, 17 and 18 leave anybody walking off the course feeeling as though it ended with a big thud.  Casual players probably think that the final hole is a big thrilll but it never worked for me.  

Ocean Dunes and Sandpines run a couple of fun tournaments in the fall for those who want to go to the Oregon Coast and act badly.  

peter_p

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 11:05:11 PM »
Florence now has a casino, which employs more people and causes more money to be spent in the city. I haven't checked in with the superintendent (used to work at my course) but he though they were going to do some changes on the course.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2006, 12:49:59 AM »
...The truly unfortunate set of 16, 17 and 18 leave anybody walking off the course feeeling as though it ended with a big thud.  ...
I've always wondered if others also felt the finish was such a letdown.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2006, 01:39:20 AM »
I started this post to note once again what a lost opportunity this course is. I think the land around it is just great. I was just blown away with how average a course it is and how much effort the team went to to make it so very average. Now they are putting up a major facility and not doing a redo on the course.

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2006, 02:11:50 AM »
Just out of curiosity for those who know, if they are struggling as implied in a few posts, how and why did they decide to and come up with the money to build a clubhouse?

Has a nicer clubhouse ever driven more play to a remote course?

Troon Golf has taken over management of Sandpines, and clearly they have some money behind them which may account for the clubhouse finally being built some 13 years after the course was built.  I'm not sure that Sandpines is necessarily struggling, as they're charging $95 (not including cart) during peak times to play the course, and that's a fair bit higher than it's been in the past.  I think Sandpines has benefitted tremendously from the traffic created by Bandon Dunes, as more than a few golfers stop to play Sandpines as they pass through Florence on the way to or from Bandon.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2006, 03:20:53 AM »
Mike,
$95.00 to play Sandpines? Well I can imagine it will be pretty easy to get a starting time, and a prime one at that.One could go take that $95.00 and put it to better use--like getting a recreational tooth-pulling at the dentist.

Tiger,
Yes, As far as missed oppotunities go, it is a complete missed opportunity. It's the king of missed opportunities.

Jordan Wall

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2006, 09:43:21 AM »
Tommy,

I paid only only $30.00 and the course was dead empty.
It really is bad!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Sand Pines giving Florence a bad name?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2006, 11:21:32 AM »
Doing a little bit of research and seeing that they have 650 residential lots that are going to be developed, this would be more then understanding of why they spent what they did on the clubhouse. I just hope those houses are going to be on the high ground. Because if they aren't, then at the first rising of the water table comes around on holes 4, 5, & 6, it's going to be a disaster for those home owners.

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