News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Crazy Shaped Greens
« on: June 26, 2006, 12:27:23 AM »
Most greens are fairly normal in shape. They're roundish, or ovalish. Perhaps one side of the green or the other will extend out in an interesting way. The number of greens with very unique shapes is few. Modern courses rarely even feature a boomerang green, let alone something like #17 at Glen Abbey, for example.

Why?

PM's post about tucked pins and approach putting got me rethinking about something I thought about a while back. I did some sketches where I drew the bunkers and hazards first, and then drew in greens around them, allowing the shape of the green to bulge and curl and snake around the hazards. The result was a lot of greens with crazy shapes that were large in square footage, but played very small. It seemed like an idea that could work.

I posted a few quick sketches below. Note that the #1's, #2's, and #3's each have exactly the same bunker placement - just very different green shapes. The "a's" are bunkers drawn around greens; the "b's" are greens drawn around bunkers.

What do you all think?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 12:35:19 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 02:20:00 AM »
I like crazy greens, but I think the contours should try to make it so that you can get from one lobe to another without needing to take a LW off the green wherever possible.  Like if your 2b green had a really big slope down into that bunker from the entire green, you could get from front right to back right without having to try to hit a LW off a green over a bunker to reach the other lobe.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 03:00:06 AM »
1b reminds me of the 13th at The Cardinal CC (Pete Dye) in Greensboro, NC, except there's an additional bunker over the green in the center.  The shape works well since it's a par five and you can chose to challenge these tongues with your relatively short shot or play safe to the middle and take your chance with a longer putt.  The back right hole location is most difficult since there's both the short right bunker, the long left bunker, and a creek along the right edge of the green and bunker.

2b reminds me of eight at Pebble Beach that I just played this week.  The front left half of the green slopes hard from back to front.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Jay Flemma

Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 06:39:48 AM »
Doug's exactly right...design contours so a well thought out putt with spin can get reasonably close without the player having to chip.

That will cut down on the "chump factor" of idiots getting angry and chipping divots out of your green when they are snookered.

Some good examples are #14 at Black Mesa, 7 at Crystal Downs, 6 at Riviera and 19 at Forest Dunes. That is not a misprint, 19 is the extra hole.

Doak mentions some more in the Anatomy of a GC.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 08:31:58 AM »
You can find 2 (b) at Lakota canyon, par 3, 3rd hole, a drop shot of 90 feet (minus the sand trap, a favine instead), with bold contouring
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 09:27:47 AM »
Matt -

When Poppy Hills (at Pebble Beach) first opened, some of the greens had "crazy shapes." There were areas of a green that could not be reached by putting directly from other areas of the green. As I recall, the greens at Poppy Hills have been toned down over the years and been made more traditionally shaped to eliminate that feature.

There is a least one green at Sea Ranch (the first green on the newer 9) that is cross-shaped (+). Depending on where your ball is and where the cup is, you might have to putt and/or chip thru the fringe to get close to the hole.

DT

 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 09:29:30 AM »
Matt,

I have designed greens like 1B - that is similar to Riviera's famous Gull Wing but I think it works better on short par 4 and par 5 holes.  In your sketch, the little lobes in front of the side bunkers couldn't be used for pins, and a slightly simpler shape would work better.  For that matter, given most greens mowers, curves should be at least 48' diamter, and preferably about 55' diameter to avoid mower scalping.

I recently designed a green like 3B.  That one really isn't that unusual.  The 13th at the Quarry is also similar, with a steep bank front and back as hazards.

I have also designed greens like No. 2B (or not 2B)  One such green is 5 at Colbert Hills.  That bunker is the semi infamous "Wildcat Paw" in the corner.  There is a fw cut above the right side so you can creatively putt around the corner.

Around the office, we call that green the "cartoon character with big nose eating a potato chip" green......

Alas, putting around the corner is always a technical problem, as most golfers don't understand that.  And most supers hate repairing green divots.

Playing the Tribute in the Colony, TX on Friday with the erstwhile John Conley, their sixth hole had a similar shaped green, but with a large mound with fairway cut on the inside corner that worked great.  The mound deflected my approach (and semi stubbed chip, dammit) away from the pin on the right, but it did allow recovery and putting around the corner.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 01:03:21 PM »
What about the idea of creating greens around bunkers vs. creating bunkers around greens? Is that something anyone here has thought about or used?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 01:22:50 PM »
The 7th green at Ballyneal is very distinctively shaped like an an E, with bunkers between the three fingers.  The fingers themselves aren't very long, and with the contours you can get to each area from another .......

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2006, 01:38:14 PM »
It seems like the ability to putt around the corners, from both a maintenance and a playability standpoint, is a key.

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2006, 04:56:07 PM »
Matt --

I love your greens.  Might it be possible to integrate contours to make the pin locations accessible from all points?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 05:01:09 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 05:46:38 PM »
#18 at Whistling Straits is shaped like a clover...as weird as it gets....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 07:16:09 PM »
Around the office, we call that green the "cartoon character with big nose eating a potato chip" green......

You and your formulas!  ;D
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Kyle Harris

Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 08:45:52 PM »
Matt,

I definitely like 2b the best, as it seems to have the best blend of fairway width/angles of attack and hole locations.

I think 3b could be a very effective green if the fairway were VERY wide and the hole location dictated play around central hazards off the tee.

Good work overall, perhaps we (or you) could implement them into full designs?

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 11:48:09 PM »
Doug's exactly right...design contours so a well thought out putt with spin can get reasonably close without the player having to chip.

That will cut down on the "chump factor" of idiots getting angry and chipping divots out of your green when they are snookered.

Some good examples are #14 at Black Mesa, 7 at Crystal Downs, 6 at Riviera and 19 at Forest Dunes. That is not a misprint, 19 is the extra hole.

Doak mentions some more in the Anatomy of a GC.


Spin?  You talking putting or billiards?  I may occasionally induce a bit of English on a putt, but certainly not deliberately!  Is that something people actually do?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 02:24:23 AM »
Here's a try. I don't know how to do green contours. I'm just going with the layout of the hole here. I realize that's like designing a shirt in a single color and saying I don't know how to represent stripes. But...

By the way, my favorite line on either of these holes is playing a driver down the far right side of the short par 4 (on the left), squeezing it between the bunker and the rough, to get a "backdoor" angle at a back-right pin. I envision allowing the player an easy pitch from there.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 04:07:09 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 03:54:24 AM »
I think there is much room for new ideas in green shapes. One of the traps is to stay within curved shapes...

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 04:03:49 AM »
Makes it easier for the guys doing the yardage book, anyway. Eek.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 01:15:50 PM »
bump. comment on those drawings, y'all.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crazy Shaped Greens
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2006, 03:32:33 AM »
C'mon. I even put in "fairway" bunkers and lots of options, just for you guys. C'mon.