U.S. Opens with/without poa

[Matt_Cohn]

I wasn't expecting WF to have so much poa in the greens. I associate the great Northeast private clubs with bent grass greens.

I also don't remember any U.S. Open courses having poa like that (Pebble and Olympic obviously are exceptions). In the same area, did Bethpage, Baltusrol, or Shinnecock ever have poa like that? I know that Westchester two weeks ago did.

I know that April-June can be prime time for poa but I'm confused. Are my bentgrass visions grounded in reality? What's on WF's greens in October? Why was there so much poa, and is this normal?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,
  Pebble greens are some of the worst Poa green sout there-That's why Tiger doens't play in the AT&T anymore. The climate out there is aweful for trying to have bentgrass. Olympia Fields greens were new with what I believe an "A" serious, Pinehurst has Crenshaw-Shinnecock's Assistant, Adam Jessie will have to chime in with what exactly they have. Baulstrol interseeds a "A" series into their greens.
  It did not help ANY that the northeast had such a wet spring. That is the perfect climate for poa. You did not see this at Shinnecock because things were very dry.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Sobieski]

Isn't Oakmont mostly Poa? Can somebody confirm my recollection?

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

Bethpage's greens are primarily to mostly Poa.

Roger Maltbie stated that he had never seen Poa greens like them in their overall quality. For what that is worth.

[Joe Hancock]

Any old club is going to be mostly poa. I don't know of any "prestigeous" club that doesn't manage and irrigate for the survivability of poa, in cool season climates.

One of the biggest misconceptions of tournament golf is that the course is presented to the pro's in a "dry" state. The problem is that none of the tournament courses are maintained dry over the long haul. The dry that the pro's get is a temporary dry that doesn't really have the characteristics of a Fishers Island, for example. Root structure, density, leaf stiffness, etc. is all different on a truly dry golf course. Also, a golf course can be maintained dry, even when it periodically rains.

Poa will always be around, but it only becomes the dominant turf when enough water is artificially applied to make it so.

Joe

[Ryan Farrow]

Isn't Oakmont mostly Poa? Can somebody confirm my recollection?

Yes they are. at least thats what the turfgrass majors tell me.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  Nearly every US Open course has bent/poa greens, heavy on the poa unless they've just rebuilt or reseeded them all.  You name them:  Winged Foot, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Pebble Beach, Merion (when the last Open was there, they lost them all in 1990 so now they're bent), Inverness, Oakland Hills, etc., etc.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom & Joe - Played tennis tonight at Merion Cricket on the grass.  The surface was better than I can ever remember, joining there in 1971.  Monticalvo was the genius in the late '80s who got them out of poa.  His gift to Merion Golf, of what to do, will never be repaid in dollars - but I remember him, and his thoughtful concern for what went from tennis to golf.  Thanks !

[Marc Haring]

I’m not sure how conducive the climate is for poa at WF but if it is anything like over here then the only way you’re going to control it is through hardcore starvation and I don’t think that would be acceptable for most. The problem is the clientele, who ever they may be, insist on green and close shaven and not too firm and in those circumstances you are creating the ideal conditions for poa to dominate the sward. It just plain loves those conditions. Even controlling it (you’ll never eliminate it in the long run) takes some pretty extreme conditions. Just take a look at the pictures below and ask yourself if those conditions would be acceptable and I’m just about getting my greens to a point where the poa is kept at about 30 – 50%. Also they would be running at about 8 for much of the year and would be very very firm to the point where a pinnacle will make a slight dent in the green en route to bounding into oblivion.








This is a close-up of a fescue dominated part of the green.

[Joe Hancock]

Marc,

Great job!!!!!! Thanks for the pictures. If I get a chance, I will take some picture of my course for comparison......we're doing the same thing basically, in terms of drying down.

You are right that most golfers will not readily accept this type of maintenance.

Joe

[Paul Carey]

I recently played Congressional and their greens have turned to Poa.  They were mostly bent in 1997.  Anyway, if the weather cooperates Poa greens can be great in June.

Paul

[Eric Johnson]

Marc,
Great looking sward.  How is the season treating you?  

North winds have started out here, signalling summer has arrived.  Still waiting for Spring 2006........

[Craig Sweet]

Marc...they look beautiful to me!  I have stated more than once that a nice fescue/bent mix is the way to go for most courses in the northern zones....but I'm sure there will be a million posts as to why you can't grow fescue in the northern zones.

[Tom Zeni]

The 2007 US Open at Oakmont will be Poa Anna. However, as you will note in this article from today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, there are many varieties of Poa, and Oakmont's is extremely smooth.

And I would say, unless it's a relatively new private course, or one that had it's greens competely redone, the prevailing grass is Poa Anna.

Here's your definitive answer.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06172/699890-136.stm

[Eric Johnson]

The 2007 US Open at Oakmont will be Poa Anna. However, as you will note in this article from today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, there are many varieties of Poa, and Oakmont's is extremely smooth.

And I would say, unless it's a relatively new private course, or one that had it's greens competely redone, the prevailing grass is Poa Anna.

Here's your definitive answer.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06172/699890-136.stm

There are tons of Poa sp. varieties.  However, Poa annua has many biotypes but there is (or was) only one "variety" which is Tru-Putt.  Not sure of any named varieties coming out of the Penn State work as of yet.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Marc...they look beautiful to me!  I have stated more than once that a nice fescue/bent mix is the way to go for most courses in the northern zones....but I'm sure there will be a million posts as to why you can't grow fescue in the northern zones.

Be careful, a certain gentleman from Jersey may be warming up his keyboard!  

[Tom Zeni]

Kinda splitting hairs Eric. Varieties - Strains. Just a vocabulary choice. If you read the article, there has not been any successful breeding by researchers of the Oakmont Strain.

[David Kelly]

Prairie Dunes will be fumegating their greens next fall and reseeding with bent in order to get rid of the poa.

[Joe Hancock]

David,

Without altering their irrigation practices, reseeding will be a temporary fix. In fact, I've seen awful results a few years after reseeding because the poa types that came back were the ugly bunch type varieties.

Joe

[David Kelly]

Joe,

Looking at what I wrote I realize that it was misleading.  Getting rid of poa annua is not the only reason that they are fumigating their greens but it is one of the benefits.  As far as reseeding and irrigation believe me if there is one guy you can trust to get it right it is Stan George.

[Marc Haring]

Marc,
Great looking sward.  How is the season treating you?  

North winds have started out here, signalling summer has arrived.  Still waiting for Spring 2006........

Not too bad Eric. We're getting temperatures in the steady high 60's but are very dry. They are being hit hard in the south east where there is a total watering ban being imposed on a couple of the clubs that still use mains.



Joe.

I had the real pleasure of dinner with stan George at Atlanta this year. There is one Guy that has the ability of clear thought. Me; I need a couple of beers before I can think that logically.

[Joe Hancock]

I've never met Stan, but sounds like he's in the fold, eh?

David, I guess I've always been of the mindset that if fumigation (or any other drastic measure) is required, there is (or was) something amiss. It sounds as if there is some information and details surrounding Prarie Dunes that would make fumigation seem more sensible to me.

Marc, I'm with you, ie the clear thought ability. My window of logic is much narrower than yours however. No beers isn't good, one beer starts sounding more sensible, then after 2 beers I have no idea what's going on around me.

Joe

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