[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

Are you willing to concede that most American courses (and, I'll have to presume, most British courses) are not Royal Dornoch, and that playing them from, say, 6800 yards will be a substantially different experience from playing them at 6200 yards -- particularly if one is a long hitter?

(I'm not talking about myself, by the way.)

Dan

[ForkaB]

I agree, Dan

One of the reasons that links courses CAN play so tough at shorter lengths is that they allow for more roll.  The big hitter will roll his tee ball into places he don't wanna be, both off the tee and coming into the green.  In the US, with the irrigated clay-based fairways it's hit it high drop and stop for the bombers.  An additional 600 yards means a lot under those conditions.  Can't say that it's more fun, however.......

[Tim Gavrich]

Rich --

Are you willing to concede that most American courses (and, I'll have to presume, most British courses) are not Royal Dornoch, and that playing them from, say, 6800 yards will be a substantially different experience from playing them at 6200 yards -- particularly if one is a long hitter?

(I'm not talking about myself, by the way.)

Dan

I agree here, Dan.

Three courses immediately come to mind which I believe are slightly 'easier' from the tips than the middle tees, for me.  They are TPC River Highlands, Yale, and my second home course, Pawleys Plantation.  Now, I hit the ball in the 260-280 range, and have a handicap in the neighborhood of 2.  I have had to play shorter tees on each of these courses, and when I have, I have felt hesitant to hit drivers off of non-par 4s, because a well-struck driver may run through the fairway.  Above all, this impacts the 'fun' factor.  At Pawleys, where the difference between the Golden Bear tees and the Blue tees is 2.8 rating-wise, and 9 slope wise (75.3-72.5; 146-137), I have never broken 75 from the blues, but have shot 74 twice from the Bears.  Now, I applaud the club, though, for not putting markers out to signify the Golden Bear tees.

Here is where I applaud the folks across the pond for a sound system.  One should earn the right to play certain sets of tees by handicap.  If you want to play the tips, bring a legitimate handicap of, let's say, 6 or lower.  At some courses the upper limit ought to be adjusted, but this seems a good average at most 'lengthy' (tips at 6700+ yards par 72) courses.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

2.  Take Tom Doak's advice very seriously.  Enjoy the courses you play from wherever you play them.  Even if you think you are God's gift to golf, you'll find that the best links courses will expose some part of your game, even if you are hitting wedges into most of the par-4s.  Hey, even Matt Ward sort of agrees with us!

Ok - sure do love flying making all of the arrangements, flying 3,000 miles, paying triple the local rate, and "Sir, we ask that you play at 6,000 yards."  Good fun threading 4 irons!  my game is exposed when I am forced to make good driver swings.  It is also exposed with a lack of patience in laying up hole after hole after hole.  I am not a 0-2 hcp, but a 3-6 hcp who carries the ball 286 at sea level with flat wind.  90% of my tee shots are findable.

I play in 3-5 PGA TOUR Pro-Ams a year, and it's the same deal with the way that they set up the courses.  "Come to Disneyworld, but you can only go on the kiddie rides."  If I paid all of that $ to play in one of those events for the chance to play along the Yankees in the big ballyard in the Bronx, I sure don't want to be shunted to the LL field in MacCombs Dam Park right outside the Yankee Stadium.

That said, go play the ladies tees once this year in a beer round with 3 of you your buddies.  It's like making love with a condom:  "It was nice, but I really didn't feel anything."

JWK

[Glenn Spencer]

David O, et. al

Just to reinforce what Mike Benham said, if you play Dornoch from the front tees (about 6200), you'll hit driver on all 14 par 4s and 5s, unless the wind is blowing and you can reach 1 or 15  with a lesser club.  This is assuming you can carry the driver 250 or so.  Even if you are a real bomber you still use driver on 12 of the holes ( saw Els try to drive #5 (360) but it is an insane shot requiring hitting a 5-yard wide alley at the front of the green).  If the wind is blowing, any and all of your scratch golfer group will have all they can handle.  A few might go under par (70) if they really are on form and the greens are not shaved, but more than a few will be well into the 80's.  Trust me.

Rich

I am sure that it is tough. The problem for me Rich is that I play a pretty smart game of golf most times. If I can put an iron in play and have a wedge I will, you know what then happens? I end up hitting irons all day and how is that fair to me or someone else that has paid their money. It is unfair no matter how you look at really, why should a 12 be content and not me. I don't understand it. If there is a rule then that is fine, but I think it is dumb to just have a set of tees for everyone up front. Watch me, check my cap whatever, don't just take the easy way out and say no, that is insulting.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

On a calm day you could go iron/wedge (assuming 240/140 for the two clubs) to about 4 holes at Dornoch (1, 5, 15 and 17).  But, why would you do that on 1 and 15 when you could drive them.  Also, on 17 you need to hit a 10-15 yard slot to get the ball far enough forward to use wedge.  If you come off it, you've got 170-180 in.

I'm sure you'd be able to play the back tees there if you wanted to.  But if you couldn't, you wouldn't (or shouldn't ) be disappointed by what was behind door #2.....

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The medal tee in the UK is only for competition and remains untouched when no competition is on. Just like the centre of the cricket square, or the centre court the grass is given a chance to revive between the weekend competitions.
« Practise » rounds are played from « the Tee of the day ».  On competition day it’s an added pleasure to step on to a  divot free tee - another reason to polish the shoes, take out a new ball, start dreaming …..
As a kid if I was spotted taking swings from the competition tee during the week, the secretary would be on to me within minutes . Probably informed by other members.
It’s all part of the ancient British golf culture – bring back the small ball I say !

[Glenn Spencer]

Rich,

You are darn close with the yardages, although that is for American yardages, I assume more run over there. What you state is an interesting question, without a word of a lie, I would continue to hit the irons because that is how I feel the golf course is meant to be played. The 40 yards difference can be huge sometimes for someone like me. It can make the difference between getting to any par 5 or driving par 4's. Why am I supposed to enjoy doing something that will not help my game in the least. The last thing my back and swing need is to start wailing away at par 4's that are not reachable, but now reachable because of the tees I am playing. I try not to make any decisions in a round of golf that I wouldn't normally make in a tournament. It does happen, but why would I want to make these different decisions all day long? My swing gets quicker because I am trying to drive par 4s and I am not using a lot of clubs in my bag and if I play well, I am not overly excited about my round because it was from the middle tees and really doesn't count. What are the upsides here? I get to try different shots, so what? I do that when I am practicing on the course at home.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

That is a wonderful depiction of how important amateur tournament golf is over there, but for what it is worth I have played a lot of tournaments and the last thing that I have ever noticed is how many divots are on the tee. I would notice if I drove it into a bunker because I didn't know the shot though.

[ForkaB]

Rich,

I get to try different shots, so what? I do that when I am practicing on the course at home.

Glenn, with all due respect (to you and your course), I don't think you will find such shots in Ohio.

[Glenn Spencer]

Rich,

I have been to Scotland and the like, I know that kind of golf. How would moving up tees ask me to hit more of these shots?
It seems like you guys are making two arguments into one, links golf is different, but moving up tees is not going to ask me to hit any different shots around the greens, off the tee, yes, but not anything that links golf is famous for.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

All I'm saying is that if you play a shorter course (whether by choice or by fiat) you will have both different challenges and different shots to play.  Nothing more.  It can be lots of fun, in my experience, but you are entirely free to disagree.  Chacun a son gout.

Rich

[wsmorrison]

At my club there is an honor system that you have a single digit handicap to play the back tees.  There are some championship tees that are even further back that are used in tournament play only.

[wsmorrison]

Dave,

It is folly to think that your description exists in reality.  Playing the back tees with a single digit handicap is more about pace of play than anything to do with how long a golf course is playable.  The club is trying to keep pace of play to 4 hours or less for a foursome.

[Tim Pitner]

Also remember, by the good grace which is not often extended by American clubs, we are allowed to VISIT private clubs.  Why not accept the hospitality cheerfully and enjoy the day?

Well said, Sean.  This is the bottom line on the subject, IMO.  I too think the back tees ought to be an option for those worthy, but it isn't a visitor's decision to make.

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