Ben Crenshaw and Augusta National

[Mike_Cirba]

Q.R.M.;

I feel your pain, and I can tell you that one doesn't have to be a member to share it.

I have seen Gil Hanse's restoration work at numerous sites, including Fenway and Plainfield, and I believe you and the other members are in good hands...simply because there is a whole different mindset, approach, and respect bordering on reverence for classic courses from his group which contrasts starkly from your club's previous choice.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B,

I think you have to differentiate between "local' knowledge,
"common" knowledge and "universal' knowledge.

"Local" knowledge implies that there are some aspects of the course, and of the play of the course that are not apparent to the average first time player, that become apparent with subsequent rounds.  Then, it becomes "common" knowledge.
When a site gets the type of media coverage that ANHC gets, it becomes "universal" knowledge.

With the availability of practice rounds and access to the club, there isn't much you wouldn't be aware of come thursday morning.

With respect to acclimating to tournament play, remember, attendance at our funerals and tournament conditions are depedent upon the same factor...... the weather.

We're also talking about the greatest players in the world.  Those guys are better than good under any conditions.

I have been unfortunate enough to play in a USGA event where the greens were 12+ and pitched.  I watched balls putted up to the cup, go past the cup, and then come back to the player, then further back off the green, and down into the fairway.  I've also played on greens that were like concrete.  But, you have to remember, these guys are the greatest players the world has ever seen.  This is what they do for a living, to the exclusion of everything else.  This is what they have been doing for most, if not all of their adolescent and adult life.  They can handle difficult conditions.

QRM,

With the exception of cooling and heating pipes beneath the 12th green, I don't believe any green at ANGC is constructed differently from any of the others.

Are you unequivically stating that the 1st green was bathtubbed out, and a completely different green substructure put in its place ?  A USGA green unlike all of the others ?  That sounds strange.

Or, are you refering to the softening of the contouring without altering/impacting the basic substructure ?

It would be helpful to understand what subsurface construction was done.

I am opposed to softening contours in the name of speed because it leads toward an end result of boring, flat greens.  But, it's not just putting that is affected, it is the strategy of the incoming shot and the consequence of the failure to hit the desired sector of the green, that become lost in the flattening process.  The distinctive life of the green, hole and strategy are diminished, and eventually lost.

It would be helpful if you could elaborate on the work.

I tend to agree with Mike Cirba with respect to the club being in good hands, but, was there an internal club mandate with respect to that green, that was given to Gil ?

Remember, no matter who recommends a change, the committee, board and members have to approve it, under normal circumstances.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

Q.R.M. is not talking about Winged Foot, but about Quaker Ridge.  

Incidentally, I understand that changes are presently being made at WF that go beyond adding new tees but I've only heard bits and pieces.  You may want to check out the 5th hole at WFW, for instance.

[GeoffreyChilds]

QRM

I last played QR immediately before the first green was softened.  In fact, Fazio's people were there that day in preparation for the work that was to be done.  I was not in favor of touching that green at all as it provided an immediate reason to get your heart rate elevated for the round.  Testing putts and approach shots right off the bat on a hole you would hate to bogey was certainly a positive feature of the opening hole at QR. I'm sorry the work didn't turn out the way your club expected. While severe, I didn't think the green was over the top.

I would assume that Gil and his group put the contour back the way it was.  I'm looking forward to seeing that work. I hope that your club hires Gil to restore the rest of your course as well.  Mike Cirba and I were able to pick out all of the newly (1995?) redone bunkers from the originals.  Gil and company would have QR looking as spiffy and authentically restored as your neighbor down the street (Fenway).  

[Tim Weiman]

Ken Cotner:

To my knowledge the last work Watson did at Ballybunion was a few years back, largely in preparation for the 2000 Irish Open bid (tees and bunkers on #4 & 5 and removing about a foot above the Sahara bunker on #18). As I've said many times, the changes were so subtle, most people don't even notice.

Watson, however, could be going back to Ballybunion for work on the Cashen in a couple years. The changes will focus on making the course easier to walk, e.g., placing a tee on #2 to the left so that the walk from #1 green won't be so much of a workout.

Frankly, I'd like to see a few fairways widened (#15 & 17). Also, I'd like to see the landing area on #7 addressed. RTJ originally design the hole as a par five, but erosion a few years back resulted in converting the hole to a par 4. The problem is the penalty on the right side about 240-250 yards out. It's just too severe, especially with a strong wind coming in off the Atlantic. Last time I looked at the hole it appears restoring the hole to a par 5 might be possible. A large build up of sand has reversed the situation created by erosion; the build up has occured where RTJ build the original tee years ago.

QRM:

If you follow this site, you know we sometimes debate the value of anonymous posts. At the end of the day, most support them if they can be a mechanism for bringing information to light that might otherwise be suppressed. Why not tell the story but just remain anonymous? Doesn't that best serve everyone's interests?

[Ken_Cotner]

Thanks, Tim.  On my one visit for a day-and-a-half, I did not get the opportunity to play the Cashen.  Had a lovely walk around it early one morning though.

Another reason to get back there!

Ken

[Jeff_Lewis]

The truth will set you free, QRM. Why hide?

Anyway, if you want to know the story on why we got a USGA spec green, call or email me.

The real story for the members is going to be that (I hope) they will be reassured that most of the green's former features have been restored and that the bunkering, especially the one bunker short of the green, now looks like Tillinghast again!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Lewis & QRM,

Prior to the Fazio work on the 1st hole, how had the play of the first hole changed over the previous ten years or so ?

What was the genesis for the changes at # 1 ?

Getting back to ANGC for a second, I see that some had mentioned Watson, and I was wondering if they felt his understanding of architecture helped him at The Masters ?
And if it was that same understanding of architecture that helped him when he was designing Spanish Bay ?

[TEPaul]

Pat;

I've never seen anything by Tom Watson but I've heard some things about his work from some people I consider great analysts.

What they all seem to say about some of his work reminds me of how I feel about Hurzdan & Fry--way over shaped but can play good, play interesting and play fun--but some of the massive earthmoving--Oh My--why?

[Jeff_Lewis (Guest)]

Over time, 1 obviously became more reachable. That would have spoken to leaving the green in its original state, as the severity of the pitch was its only defense.

However, also, the severity of the green was such that at modern green speeds, certain shots on or around the green were essentially impossible. We really had only two pinnable areas at reasonable speeds, so there was a wear and tear issue as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Lewis,

In general, Memorial Day to Labor Day, at what average speed do your greens putt ?

How drastic have the changes been over the years ?

How much of an influence has the hosting of a yearly major Amateur event had on this evolution and the need for change ?

How much of an influence did the Walker Cup have on the speeds, process and changes ?

[Steve Lang]

I think this thread is done.... please take QRM issues ELSEWHERE.

Did anyone hear Fuzzy on the golf channel tonight?  When asked about his year, winning a "major" and all, he chuckles and said his biggest issue was finding the hotels and places to eat in the "Champions" tour locations.  He then says hey, all courses are the same, you have caddies to tell you yardage, you just go out and find a way to play it and get the ball in the hole!

Smartness or smartass or dumb lucky guy?

How about the Ben Interview/Profile on the Golf Channel..

He says about the 1995 Masters:

* Luck enters into it, definiitely!

* Its how mistakes bother you, how you take them.

* Things happen that are out of the ordinary. Things that don't happen otherwise!

* It s the most beautiful place in the world.

* When a player plays a toruney he goes through a complete gamut of emotions, the lows and the highs through a week.

* Wife.. calm that week, attacked it differently in past when in the lead.  Aware of simple things that Harvey had preached, take dead aim, trust and accept the outcome as gracefully as possible.  Something special that year.

* Mother/Dad.. Powers above and beyond took over.  Owes alot to caddie Carl to read the greens.  Spirit of determination and strength of character.

* Concentration out the window on 18th, thank god for two shot cushion.

Amen