News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Please note, each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us and we will be in contact.


Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2006, 12:00:19 PM »
The Raynor, Banks, Langford engineered look created by large scale cut and fill techniques.    

Penal golf in general.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2006, 12:08:05 PM »
The heroic or Cape hole (at least with water) was an American invention of CBM.


I could be dead wrong about this but wasn't the 1st at Machrihanish around before CBM:s first courses?
 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2006, 04:23:57 PM »

From my reading most of the original design concepts of the 20th century were American, no??

Pine Valley: First strictly championship, super hard golf course, the first target-golf golf course
National: First course copying the world's greatest golf holes
Lido: First totally manufactured great golf course
Sand Hills: First ultra-natural prarie course
Crooked Stick: The first neo-classical course
Augusta National: the first modern super wide, hazardless championship course
Country club golf
The marriage of trains and golf right here in Chicago.

I'm sure there are more.
I believe we are credited with target golf, but I would hardly attribute that as originating at Pine Valley.
There we lots of "ultra-natural" prairie courses before Sand Hills. Although they were not as good. I totally don't get the Augusta National comment. Rae's creek is and always been a hazard, and there were sand bunker hazards there from the beginning too. If you don't think trains have been married to golf before it happened in Chicago, then I believe you to be uninformed.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2006, 04:43:28 PM »
Eric,

I could be wrong, but had always heard that was a Mac original.

Eckstein,

I think many Scottish courses had the railway link before Chicago - Gleneagles was a railway owned resort, and Prestwick, Troon, TOC, and others were just as convenient to the railroads so folks could get to the course.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2006, 04:54:37 PM »
Jeff,

Would that be Mac in Machrihanish or MacDonald?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2006, 04:58:05 PM »
Jeff and Eric, I think the difference lies in CBM's Cape Hole being more than just a 'Cape' tee shot. The placement of the green in relation to the same body of water was also part and parcel of the CBM Cape Hole, before the green was moved.

(Though I am not willing to bet the mortgage on that, and am prepared to be corrected)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2006, 08:28:53 PM »
I wouldn't be shocked to find that the target bunker is an American creation.  
Jim Thompson

ForkaB

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2006, 04:34:15 AM »
The heroic or Cape hole (at least with water) was an American invention of CBM.


I could be dead wrong about this but wasn't the 1st at Machrihanish around before CBM:s first courses?
 

You are dead right--Old Tom Morris built/found the 1st at Machrihanish in 1879.  Of course, to the most fanatic of the Macdonaldheads, that hole is NOT a "Cape" hole since the green is inland.  Of course, by their definition, you really couldn't have a "Cape" hole on proper linksland since to have a greensite in close proximity to the sea would mean that the green site would be on unstable dunes and wouldn't last very long.  CB didn't have that problem in Long Island and Bermuda.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2006, 04:37:39 AM »
Jeff_Brauer
You ignorant whore, Gleneagles was built in the 1920s. I was thinking suburban commuting in Chicagoland.

Eckstein do some research, Railways have been an important spur to golf all over the world, not least in Scotland.

I'm curious to know if this is the kind of post you later delete. If it's suppossed ot be humorous it misses by a mile.

www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index. php?board=1;action=printpage;threadid=4523

« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 05:13:48 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

wsmorrison

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2006, 07:45:07 AM »
Eckstein,

You're kidding right?  If so, it isn't funny.  If not, please stop.

wsmorrison

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2006, 09:07:54 AM »
I've known Tom personally for many years now and I can read him online and offline (well, most of the time anyway).  I just wasn't sure, especially without an emoticon.  I'm relieved you were just kidding and am now lightening up.  

A_Clay_Man

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2006, 09:11:05 AM »
Not sure if this has been covered yet, but...Building exact replica holes. Is that a design concept?

Herr Eckstein, Perhaps anonimity works against sarcasim?

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2006, 12:09:09 AM »
I guess I should have know that I would get the "cart path," "cart girl, "houses," and "yardage markers" kind of responses.

I was really looking for the American answer to the Redan, Eden, Biarritz, Spectacles, Alps, Road, Lion's Mouth, etc. All the shapes, styles and strategies that we profess to appreciate and celebrate when we find them incorporated into an American course. Is the Cape Hole (assuming it is a CBM invention) our only original design contribution?

The liberal use of water hazzards was definitely introduced by Americans, but did that result in holes so popular in design and strategy that they were well identified and copied. If so, what are they?
 

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2006, 12:44:12 AM »
... Is the Cape Hole (assuming it is a CBM invention) our only original design contribution?
...
I'm sorry, but could someone please tell my why Tillinghast's REEF hole, and his double dogleg with immense hazard as rendered at Black #12 (I believe) are not original design contributions. What about the jailhouse steps (or is it staircase) at Arizona Biltmore? What about the Lido? Didn't it have significant original hole designs?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

peter_p

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2006, 01:04:29 AM »
Eckstein,
    Just one rail line, between Liverpool and Southport had these golf courses with station stops: West Lancs 1873, Formby 1884, Hesketh 1885, Royal Birkdale 1889, Southport and Ainsdale 1906, Blundll 1907, Freshfield 1908 and Hillside 1911.
     I'd hate to guess how many London area courses had rail service before then.

Eckstein

Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2006, 08:56:13 AM »

Peter Pittock
What year was the rail line built??

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2006, 10:30:50 AM »
... Is the Cape Hole (assuming it is a CBM invention) our only original design contribution?
...
I'm sorry, but could someone please tell my why Tillinghast's REEF hole, and his double dogleg with immense hazard as rendered at Black #12 (I believe) are not original design contributions. What about the jailhouse steps (or is it staircase) at Arizona Biltmore? What about the Lido? Didn't it have significant original hole designs?

Yes, I think Tillinghasts's REEF hole and "The Three Shotter" double dog-leg would definitely have to be included. Also the Jailhouse Steps. They are defined concepts with explained strategy... and, they've been incorporated into other's work.


"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2006, 06:34:51 PM »
Check this song out.  The Dubliners do a fantastic versiobn but the lyrics are slighly different and the poor paddy works on 'the leeds and selby railway'.  The song rocks and history is alive once more.


O, in eighteen hundred and forty one,
My corduroy breeches I put on,
My time was nearly done,
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

2. O, in eighteen hundred and forty two,
My corduroy breeches then were new,
I did not know what I should do.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

3. O, in eighteen hundred and forty three,
I sailed away across the sea,
I sailed away to Amerikee.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

4. O, in eighteen hundred and forty four,
I landed on the Columbia shore,
I had a pick-ax and nothing more.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.
   
5. O, in eighteen hundred and forty five,
When Dan O'Connelly was still alive,
I worked in a railway hive.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

6. O, in eighteen hundred and forty six,
I found myself in a hell of a fix;
I changed my job to toting bricks.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

7. O, in eighteen hundred and forty seven,
When Dan O'Connelly went to heaven,
Little Paddy was going on eleven.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.

8. O, in eighteen hundred and forty eight,
I found myself bound for the Golden Gate,
Gold was found in the western state.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.
 
9. O, in eighteen hundred and forty nine,
I passed my time in the Black Ball Line.
And that's the end of my monkeyshine.
To work upon the railway, the railway,
Im weary of the railway,
O, poor Paddy work on the railway.  


Check out the link I provided above for lots more on the railway and golf history.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 06:35:49 PM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2006, 10:44:13 PM »
I'm very disappointed that this thread went cold so quickly. I really thought I was onto something and would get a number of substantive responses.

This is still on my mind, so I want to restate my questions and try again for some serious input:

1) What design concepts or features were first introduced in the US and were so praiseworthy that they were replicated on other courses?

2) Is the successful inclusion of these concepts/features the difference between great courses and also-rans?

Thanks!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2006, 11:20:16 PM »
Look at George Bahto's first Feature Interview. He lists some that I suspect are original to the US. Especially anything from the Lido.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2006, 11:20:34 PM »
Jeff Brauer, the Cape hole an invention of CBM?  If you mean a "bite off all you can chew" tee shot over water or a beach, what about #2 at North Berwick West Links?  A drive over the beach cuts off lots of yards.  You're probably referring to George Bahto's definition of 'Cape hole,' which features a green sticking out into trouble.  That might be original CBM.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What great design concepts are original to the US?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2006, 01:29:13 AM »
The liberal use of water hazzards was definitely introduced by Americans, but did that result in holes so popular in design and strategy that they were well identified and copied. If so, what are they?


How about an 18th hole, slight dogleg left, water all the way down the left side, some sort of trouble right. Sounds like the finishing hole at almost half the PGA Tour events.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back