What do the "Top 100" have in common???

[Mike_Young]

It seems to me that we are always trying to relate the top 100 in terms of architecture and design merit but when I ask myself what they all have in common....I come up with items that are mainly maintenance related which furthers my opinion to myself that maintenance and a club's ability to provide maintenance over the years are as important or more important than architectural merit when it comes to making a "list".
Here are a few of the things I see they have in common:
1.  top supts.
2.  high green speeds
3.  excellent water/irrigation management
4.  walk mow greens
5.  hand raked bunkers
6.  light weight fairway mowing
7.  maintenance budgets over $800,000
What else??  And do they relate architecturally??

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike,
Those help a great course, but don't make one.
There are exceptions to every one of those items.
Cheers

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Agree there are exceptions, as always.....but tell me what they(top 10) have in common and would they be top 100 if they did not have most of the items I mentioned.  JMO but I don't think they would.
Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Y:

What you say is true, but there are a lot of other courses which didn't make the top 100 (and never will) which have most of the things on your checklist, too.  In fact, that's part of the problem, every course and club believes they have to be at that level and spends accordingly and then has to figure out a way to justify the expenditure.

[Phil_the_Author]

If one word could some it up that word would be... Elegance.

Isn't that what separates all beautiful women?

[Mike_Young]

TD,
Thats what I am trying to get at here......
Most people could not tell you the difference between a great course that should be top 100 and a course witht he same items.....

[Mike_Young]

If one word could some it up that word would be... Elegance.

Isn't that what separates all beautiful women?

Philip,
Sounds good, I agree  but is the elegance in the club or the course....I think a couple of the other items that they have in common architecturally are, test of time, shot values and fitting land....

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike Young,

I think what they have in common is financial stability which allows them and many others to buy the things on your list. How would you explain Yale sitting for years and years on the Golf Magazine list prior to Scott Ramsey arriving as super? I am not sure Yale had any of those things. There is not any real tournament history at Yale. Wasn't conditioning a problem with Pebble before the Palmer group brought back the conditioning? Obviously Pebble had history in addition to a great course. If they pour acid on Yankee Stadium and they play the World Series on dirt, it is still Yankee Stadium.

Where is the irrigation at Newport, Fishers and Maidstone?

Should Bethpage have been on the Top XYZ list before the renovation? Probably.

Is there another Bethpage out there that simply needs a good super? Please list your courses that would make your Top 100 list if they had the money/conditioning to compete.

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young,

I think what they have in common is financial stability which allows them and many others to buy the things on your list. How would you explain Yale sitting for years and years on the Golf Magazine list prior to Scott Ramsey arriving as super? I am not sure Yale had any of those things. There is not any real tournament history at Yale. Wasn't conditioning a problem with Pebble before the Palmer group brought back the conditioning? Obviously Pebble had history in addition to a great course. If they pour acid on Yankee Stadium and they play the World Series on dirt, it is still Yankee Stadium.

Where is the irrigation at Newport, Fishers and Maidstone?

Should Bethpage have been on the Top XYZ list before the renovation? Probably.

Is there another Bethpage out there that simply needs a good super? Please list your courses that would make your Top 100 list if they had the money/conditioning to compete.

Mike S,
There are exceptions as you mention.....out of 17000 course I could not begin to name my top 100.  First because I don't think there are that many of us that have seen enough to know if there are others that would be on our list if we had seen them.  One of my favorites that has all I wish in a course but asked off the list(from what I was told) but is one i think should be on it ....CEntury Club.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

I have not played Century, but have heard many similar statements to yours.

How about Palmetto, closer to your neck of the woods? Is length a factor or is it just not worthy? I have never played it, but it has always intriged me.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
I try to not let length be a factor but it is....and yes, Palmetto is defintely one.....

[Mike_Sweeney]

One more and then I will stop bugging you.   Augusta Country Club, Top 100 worthy and overshadowed or just not worthy?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S:  If you are going to include 500 courses in your bubble of "top 100 caliber", then all of the courses you mention may merit inclusion.  They're all very good courses.  But if you've only got room for 100 you have to make some tough choices, and there would not be many votes for any of those three you just mentioned.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  I think that something that most Top 100's have in common is an owner or membership that understand the quality of course that they do have and the course is maintained as it was designed. Quality meaning, design features, quality of turfgrass, ambiance, conditions and support-verbally and finacially. Take a course like Maidstone, where the conditions are fast, brown, nothing has a clean edge and some might even think that it's a muni. But it's maintained like it was years ago and it wouldn't be Maidstone if it was perfectly maintained. The complete opposite is Augusta Nat'l. That membership demands perfection. That's part of the neat think about Friar's Head-Mr. Baskt has built, or is building a membership where they know that how it is is what they are getting-it's not going to be lush green and perfectly edged and they accept it, embrace it and support it. FH's design features are utilized and the ground game is used, as it was designed to be.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[cary lichtenstein]

You should be able to recognize that it is a top 100 course without being told it is a top 100 course.

If you play one and someone has to explain to you why it is so great, something is wrong.

[Mike_Young]

Mike S:  If you are going to include 500 courses in your bubble of "top 100 caliber", then all of the courses you mention may merit inclusion.  They're all very good courses.  But if you've only got room for 100 you have to make some tough choices, and there would not be many votes for any of those three you just mentioned.

well said..this is why I can't do list....ust too many choices....IMHO

[ForkaB]

I sorta agree with you, Mike, but it's not just conditioning.  If so, all you'd need for top-100 would be good civil engineering, a good gardener and lots of moolah.

Where you are right is in saying that the top-100 (architecturally) better be buffed if they want to stay there.  I've seen enough "top" courses with dirty knickers on to know that you have to be a real GCA geek to look past their appearance to find the substance.  They could get a way with it a few years ago, but not now.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Can't speak for others but for me the three key elements of a top 100 course are:

1). Superior / unique piece of property that magnifies the quality of the golf course simply because it is THERE and only THERE.

2). Routing. This means the architect has taken the qualities of the existing terrain and created holes that use every inch of what the property provides for the maximum delivery of quality holes.

3). Shot Values. The architect makes the player play the richest diversity of shots. In general terms -- all the clubs are called into action and the player is tested for both shot control and trajectory as called upon.

Condtioning and other elements are more of support function and clearly they are important -- just not as critical as the first three I have outlined.

[Sean Leary]

You should be able to recognize that it is a top 100 course without being told it is a top 100 course.

If you play one and someone has to explain to you why it is so great, something is wrong.

I find this quote interesting.  My initial thought when I first read this thread was similar to Cary's idea, as in the old saying about pornography " I know it when I see it".   However, clearly there are courses where some people don't "get" it the first time around ( TOC and Seminole come to mind) but truly learn to appreciate it.  Does a Top 100 course need to strike people as such upon the first playing, or can it take multiple round?

[PThomas]

18 holes?!?!

[cary lichtenstein]

Like a beautiful woman:

Have you ever said 'I think that is a beautiful woman' and on another occasion is see a woman and you say, 'oh my God, she's drop dead georgous!!

Multilpe plays, I think not.