What is wrong with fun?

[David Kelly]

My point was that there is also a place for courses that want to cater to a crowd that wants to be wowed by beauty and could not care less about architecture (And between us, there are a lot more people in the later category than the former).

David,

I understand the point that you are making.  There are millions of people who play golf every day and 99%+ are not doing it at the likes of The Valley Club or Fisher's Island or Merion so there is a place in the game for all types of courses that don't aspire to or haven't acheived greatness.  

Most golfers don't care about golf course architecture. I get it. I get it.

But why are we repeatedly told this?

Do people log on to classic cars websites to extole the virtues of the Toyota Camry and tell people that most drivers just want a car that will get them around town?  Do people hang out on websites devoted to art appreciation and bring up the fact that Thomas Kinkade is a billionaire?

Everybody knows what most golfers like and most everyone on here plays courses like Tustin Ranch at least occasionally. Obviously people come to this website to discuss the best in golf architecture whether they are able to play the courses under discussion or not. As it says on the first line of the GolfClubAtlas.com home page, "GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses."

[David Wigler]

My point was that there is also a place for courses that want to cater to a crowd that wants to be wowed by beauty and could not care less about architecture (And between us, there are a lot more people in the later category than the former).

David,

I understand the point that you are making.  There are millions of people who play golf every day and 99%+ are not doing it at the likes of The Valley Club or Fisher's Island or Merion so there is a place in the game for all types of courses that don't aspire to or haven't acheived greatness.  

Most golfers don't care about golf course architecture. I get it. I get it.

But why are we repeatedly told this?

Do people log on to classic cars websites to extole the virtues of the Toyota Camry and tell people that most drivers just want a car that will get them around town?  Do people hang out on websites devoted to art appreciation and bring up the fact that Thomas Kinkade is a billionaire?

Everybody knows what most golfers like and most everyone on here plays courses like Tustin Ranch at least occasionally. Obviously people come to this website to discuss the best in golf architecture whether they are able to play the courses under discussion or not. As it says on the first line of the GolfClubAtlas.com home page, "GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses."

David,

I do not get your point or why you also appear offended.  IMO the majority of people driving Toyota Camry's would rather be driving Rolls Royce's.  IMO the majority of people playing Tustin Ranch would rather be playing Tustin Ranch (Tommy concedes as much).  I hope that distinction makes sense.  

Do you really believe that the majority of people on GCA have no aspirations to play the courses under discussion?  How can anyone possibly spend time on this sight and not dream of one day getting to play NGLA - I know I do?  

I love classical architecture.  My favorite three courses are Cypress Point (Big Gap) and then some combination of Prairie Dunes, LACC North, Capilano, St Georges, and ShoreAcres.  All are classical designs.  

I also believe that the Landscape Architect course has a place.  I hoped that it would not be so controversial an opinion.

[Matt_Cohn]

I had a discussion with a hardcore GCA type yesterday (not anyone active on this site) who actually thought less of a golf course because I said it was fun and beautiful. (The two courses under discussion were Mauna Kea and The Rim.)

Yes, we have to be careful of getting carried away with our own ideas.

[David Kelly]

IMO the majority of people playing Tustin Ranch would rather be playing Tustin Ranch (Tommy concedes as much).  I hope that distinction makes sense.

The majority of people playing Tustin Ranch have never heard of The Valley Club, Fisher's Island, or Merion.

Do you really believe that the majority of people on GCA have no aspirations to play the courses under discussion?    

Where did I say that most people have no aspirations to play classic courses? Where is it even hinted at in my post?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Wigs,
I dont think I conceded it. I'm sorry you think I did, but I really don't. The fact is that the people or customer base that enjoy Tustin Ranch are basically clueless when it comes to GREAT golf architecture. Now that may seem harsh (and I'm not necessarily putting you in that group, but it would probably include your clients and bosses who you were wining and dining during your stay.) but David Kelly hits it right on the head, and which I was trying to when I suggested in a more comic tone that Ted's Newport Beach CC should never be compared in the same sentence, let alone breath the same air as Newport Country Club in Rhode Island. (as an example, and trust me, they don't!)

Next time your out at Tustin Raunch, ask any person (who in actuallity, is not really a golfer) who George Thomas, A.W. Tillinghast, C.B. MacDonald is. You'll not even be able to get a response, let alone a legitimate thought on an issue that is pressing the Sport at this given moment. I doubt they even could tell you who Walter Hagen was, let alone Sir Walter Raleigh.

Tell you what: Ask them who Wally Uliehn is! I will lay an entire pasta meal (which you owe me anyway!) and they won't have a clue, that is unless they're a stock broker with an office on Fashion Island that pays way too much attention to his passion stocks. This is all just the nature of the place and the area. When it comes to culture, Orange County is without doubt, The Land of the Clueless. It's a beautiful place, and I long for the days of the old Irvine Ranch store, which used to stand guard over hundreds of acres and acres of orange groves in a natural ranch setting that still echos in my head.

Now, it's all over-priced houses, townhouses, condos and apartment buildings, warehouses and shopping malls hiding behind grassy-knolled center dividers that look like Ted Robinson designed them. The entire infrastructure of Orange County has been over-built and over-extended past its prime. The sewers are too small, the power to supply all of these communities--pressed beyond their rating--the trafffic--deplorable.

Orange County people are generally the most superficial, materialistic, nuveau riche suburbanites you will ever come across. The only thing they are familiar with is name-branding, thus enabling them to not have to think--just buy. It takes going to Long Beach, Belmont Shore and culture-rich San Pedro or going south, getting past Camp Pendleton and into North County to get away from it. And then again, some of them get past the border crossings and make there way into San Diego. This is how Matt Cohn probably got there!

(Sorry Matt, I just couldn't help myself!)

All in all, why on earth would a GREAT golf course ever be built here? It just never had a chance to happen and it more then likely never will.

I'll give you this: Tustin Ranch is a GREAT golf course--for Orange County.

I'll let you take it from there.

[Brad Klein]

Tommy,

have you ever thought of becoming a golf writer? This is brilliant stuff. Even though I agree here with Wigler I'd rather read what you write. It's more entertaining.

[Mike_Golden]

I lived in SoCal for 18 months, spent 1/2 that time within a 10 minute drive of Tustin Ranch and never found the need to drive out there.  I was only a few minutes from Strawberry Farms and never drove out there either.  It just made no sense to me to pay over $100 for a local golf course.  Oak Creek was similarly a few minutes away and I played it probably 8-10 times because they have a $60 rate during the week if you're over 55.  In all honesty, I got just as much pleasure out of playing the Costa Mesa munis or $35 as Oak Creek.

I have no problem with an out of towner having a good time at a place like Tustin Ranch regardless of the greens fee;  Tommy's point (and a good one, although I disagree with him about the Belmont Shores/Long Beach/San Pedro area being any better-it's the people in SoCal, Tommy, there are way, way too many phonies) is the dearth of reality in SoCal, something a visitor never sees.  Orange County may be a cultural wasteland but far more than that it's a gathering place for shallow, selfish people to meet, mingle, and b.s. everyone about how honest, sincere, and caring they are.

[Andy Troeger]

While I've never seen/played/generally even heard of most of the courses mentioned on this thread (which is kind of nice btw to get a little variety!), it is reminding me why I love Blackwolf Run's River Course. Its an exceptionally beautiful place, but the architecture is great too  One without the other is fine by me, I suppose generally I'd rather the great GCA than the other but I'd play either one, although it seems like the problem with Tustin is the price more than anything which is another issue.

[David Wigler]

Wigs,
I dont think I conceded it. I'm sorry you think I did, but I really don't....

I'll give you this: Tustin Ranch is a GREAT golf course--for Orange County.

I'll let you take it from there.

Tommy,

I love your writing when you get riled up.  I wonder if you see that we are arguing the same point from different sides.  Nowhere did I say Tustin was a great course.  In fact, I argued that it should not even be on lists considered for top 100 status.  My point was twofold: Tustin is fun to play, and my original hypothesis which starts the second paragraph of the first post in this thread: "Tustin Ranch is perfect for the crowd it serves."  Your conclusion above is the same.  

Golf is a great big world.  You can love colorful art without knowing who Delacroix is, you can appreciate literature without having read Sarte, and you can love golf without having played a Tillinghast (I have not yet) or even knowing who he is.  It should be expected that a well trained golf scholar would gravitate to the classics and also expected that the masses would love flashy (Who is read more, Dickens or Stephen King?).

Again I hope to see you soon when work is not my only focus.

Dave

[DMoriarty]

The fantasy behind this oft repeating topic is that those who actually care about golf course design have little regard for golf courses which are fun to play.  Not only is this incorrect, it is almost the polar opposite of the truth.  For many of us, "fun" is our primary gca criterion and perhaps our only one.  The more fun the course, the better course.  As simple as that.  

Four traveling businessmen find Tustin great fun based largely on eye candy?  I am not surprised.   Nor am I surprised that Thomas Kinkade is the best selling living artist in the world.  So what?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
Of course we agree that any golf is good golf. There is little doubt about that. I'm just more concerned what $100+ golf does to the health of the Sport, let alone make it worth one's hard earned working dollars to spend so much for 5 painful hours of mediocrity.

I also think that--and much hasn't really been said here in regards to the condos and housing that abut the course in such a fashion that voyerism is a welcomed practice--it's going to take a dreck-load of waterfalls and green grass to disguise all of those structures that have no real architecture-style or influence....No substance! And Tustin Ranch does a horrible job of doing it simply because  it's all so.....Disneyland which in GREAT golf terms is nothing more then Fantasyland.

You still owe me dinner! I'm holding you to it!

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tommy, so how much do you know about the sewer problems in Orange County and why?

Brad, got the new addition of Rough Meditations and I am thoroughly enjoying it.  Your account about the Riviera greens is 100% accurate.  But the new edition must have removed the chapter about the $100 greens fee course designed by a landscape architect as being the poster boy of fun.

Tommy, played Recreation Park yesterday (1/3 the cost of Tustin Ranch).  WE MUST play there soon and compare notes on old bunker sites, etc.  Rec. Park is among the 10 best courses in Southern California, private or public!  Have you played Cal Olson's Skylinks yet?

[Mike_Golden]

Lynn,

Having played both Rec Park and Skylinks, if I had a total of 10 rounds, the split would be Rec Park 11 and Skylinks -1.  That's how boring, uninteresting and crappy Skylinks is, IMHO.  I'm guessing Tommy would feel the same way.  Rec Park is a terrific golf course, it's too bad they've taken out so many of the original bunkers and grassed them in.

[Glenn Spencer]

Drop the Black in the middle of Orange County and people would appreciate gca!!! How do you guys know what golfers want? That course was in about as good of shape as my hotel room after a 4 round tournament!! People still slept in their cars overnight to play it!! The USGA came in and made a lot of people take notice, but long before that, New York knew how good it was and they came in droves!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lynn,
It's just me wanting to know how my tax dollars are at work!

I couldn't agree more with you about Rec Park--the truest poster boy of fun! It should be the course we are focusing our attentions on, not Tustin Raunch! (The course with the $100.00 green fee that was done by a landscape architect!)

I was just getting ready to hit reply and tell you what ike Golden thought of Award Winning Golf Architect, Cal Olsons version of Skylinks, and I slipped down and saw Mike did it for me and saved me time! Thanks Mike!

Glenn Spencer,
Have you ever played golf in Orange County? If you have, then it's obvious you weren't paying attention! But who am I to question? ? ? ? Well, Mike Golden, who has proably played the Black more then anyone on this site, well the only time I ever saw him happy on a golf course when he lived here was when he played Rec Park. And trust me when I say this: He would never ever compare the two! The thing for Mike was that it represented at least something semi-worthy of his valuable time.  

Also, I will have you know that Lynn is fully knowledgable of what the people want. He used to have his own public course. So there goes that argument!

Lets look at the most recent ten comments from http://www.greenskeeper.org/main.cfm : These have not be edited in any form. They are in EXACT order.  

Look at the main complaint. (in bold)

Afterwards, go to and see the ten most recent comments on Rustic Canyon or for that matter, Rec Park and tell me what you read into it. Forget about the cost difference between the two courses. We know Rustic wins it hands down. But look at the way people talk about the course itself. They'll tell you about green conditioning at both courses, but maybe one comment on Tustin Ranch really gets into playability. Rustic Canyon's review, most everyone can't wait to get back there ready to play all of the different shots! This is with less then decent conditions and all!:

 t25452 - Laguna Niguel Posted: Friday, April 7, 2006

Greens are still too bumpy from aeration over 6 weeks ago. With recent rain, fairways are finally turning green. Lots of divot damage on fairways. Rough was lush. With the wind blowing, #15 and 18 can be very tough. Not worth full price.


michaelko - Arcadia Posted: Tuesday, April 4, 2006

Played fri 3/31. Course in good shape. Greens are just about healed, maybe another week. Nice enough course, wouldn't pay the full rack rate, though.


lmosso - Menlo Park, CA Posted: Monday, March 13, 2006

Definately not worth the $$$, played there on Sunday 3/5. Greens had been punched "two weeks" prior, but they were still horrible with way too much sand on them. I was expecting a lot more from the course for that kind of cash. Everyone there has an attitude about how great that place is, thinking it is an upscale country club.


swm2001 - No. Tustin Posted: Wednesday, March 1, 2006

I played the course on Sunday 2/26. The greens have all been punched-large diameter and sanded (with a lot of sand - no way to hold a line or judge speed consistantly). A score with the greens in their current condition is pretty much meaningless. It was OK for a twlight practice round as the rest of the course was in fairly normal condition.


t25452 - Laguna Niguel Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2006

Played Thursday, 1/19. Fairways were dormant with clumps of weeds throughout. They stopped overseeding here a few years back (the fairways). Rough and greenside areas were lush; they were letting it grow long for the Tustin City Championships which were today (Saturday). Greens were in good shape. It is not worth $105! My friend is in Men's club so we played for $50. Back nine holes are more interesting than the front. I'd go back. It's nice they allow you to walk.


buzzards - brea, ca Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2005

$92.00 and you had to stay on the cart path because the fairways were in such terrible conditiion. And, we received no warning from the staff.


spenser - huntington beach Posted: Sunday, July 10, 2005

Played Sunday 7/10 on Golfextra & it was still over $80 since they charge extra for carts. Course is in good condition. Greens are little bumpy, some bunkers had good sand but I was in bunker on 17 that had wet, heavy sand and a very low lip so I decided to putt from it saving par. My complaint here is that the course is not real exciting and only a handful of holes stand out like 11 & 18. I doubt I would pay full price since there are nicer courses out there.

***Finally, here are a few positive ones!***


crocdriver - Seal Beach, Ca Posted: Tuesday, June 7, 2005

Great course!!! One of the nicest i have ever played. Pricey but worth every penny.

jeywada - Monterey Park, Ca Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2005

Played 6/1 (Thursday) @ 9AM. Great day. First time @ Tustin Ranch and I have to say it was pretty fun. First, let me say that Tustin Ranch is a nice course. Greens rolled pretty true, (@ medium speed) and at the 1/2 off red dot discount price it was well worth the 57.50 to ride. This is a course with condos built all around it ,therefore, the greens are relatively small so it is a little like target golf in that manner...Do not expect any great elevation changes or "variety" of style here. Many of the holes seem to blend in to each other, almost repetitive. But overall, it is a good deal w/ the red dot discount. An "8" course on the richter scale.

stickboy - Lakewood, Ca Posted: Wednesday, June 1, 2005

ALWAYS be sure to call course and specifically ask about condition of the greens before driving out there. I didn't ask, and they forgot to tell me greens were "percolated" (I think that means punched, but not sanded) earlier this week. Practice greens were pretty bumpy so I didn't play. You might want to wait a week or two.

So maybe Glenn, maybe you just might be right. Maybe there is intelligent life out there that sees this charade of a golf course going on in Tustin and it hits them enough the most where it ultimately costs them--in the pocket book. I think that this is the point. Should we be celebrating $100.00 shitty courses as fun experiences? Frankly speaking, I think this is exactly what got the Sport in trouble to begin with. It's given golf development a bad name.

[tonyt]

The pay for play course over my back fence opened last month, and I'm a big fan of its existence in the outer Melbourne market.

It will win no design or creativity awards, has bunkers shaped either as perfect spheres or terrible amoeba-like sprawling masses. And yet it hits its target market nail on the head brilliantly. It is very well conditioned. It has many water hazards and bunkering, though they are set back from play (the bunkers a little, the water often a lot) in a way so that they look a bit fierce but are never in play for all but poor shots. The fairways are very wide. The greens are enormous, and though not heavily contoured, have enough movement to look interesting and be fun. The design encompasses in places favoured sides of fairways that are riskier to access, yet the overall leniency in the design means the wrong side of the fairway is not overly troublesome anywhere.

It is a picture of benign underachievement in many ways. And yet Joe Public can romp around with three mates in well under four hours (even though it can stretch to 7100 yards from the tips), adores the place, and loses few or no pills. Not my cup of tea, but a pleasant occasional distraction, and a worthy and much needed contrast to a goliath-like test of difficulty and five hour endurance from all but the forward tees of many similarly pitched venues.

[Mike_Golden]

Tommy,

You may have overexaggerated just a little-I actually enjoyed playing both Costa Mesa munis (we just never played them together), thought Rancho San Joaquin wasn't all that bad considering the relative greens fees, and, if you remember, we both really liked that course way out there (Diamond Ranch, or something like that).  And Goose Creek is pretty good except for the fragrance.  Other than that, though, in my limited experience, there wasn't much else in the way of affordable, interesting, fun golf.

I have to admit I have no clue what point Glen Spencer is trying to make about putting the Black in Orange County.  First of all, most of Orange County wouldn't want to play it because of the No Cart rule.  Secondly, the golfers of Orange County would think it was too tough, even from the White tees.

And Glen, back in the old days before the course renovation AND the reservation system being put in place, the Black was always the least crowded course of the 5 at Bethpage because it was so difficult.  People slept in their cars for not only the Black (on the weekends only, you could come out at 7 AM during the week and get out within a hour almost every day) but also for the Red, Blue, Green and even Yellow-that was because there weren't a whole lot of choices in public courses back then, nothing like there are now.  And the complex at Eisenhower was in really, really bad shape 20 years ago as were the courses in New York City so that Bethpage was a destination for lots of people from all of the boroughs.  So you were drawing upon a population of more than 7 million for what amounts to 1,000 players per day.