Tilly at the Cascades

[wsmorrison]

"That is why I am also questioning. Still, the very bottom line is that there are several pieces of information that state that work was done by Tilly & Lees on the Cascades course. I am simply asking how that could be"

It cannot be, Phil.  There is an error, the source of which I don't think we need to speculate on.

You believe that there are several pieces when in fact there is currently only one known for certain, Tillinghast's advertisement.  Are there any mistakes in this or other Tillinghast advertisements?  If so, we would be forced to look at the accuracy in a larger pespective.  At this point with what we know, the simple answer is that Tillinghast made a mistake.

The history you cite, the March 1932 Homestead Spectator is being sent to me by the resort if they have it on file.  They have a copy of every one that is known to have survived.  I hope this one is in their files.  Even still, the article title indicates it talks about golf at the Cascades AND in Hot Springs.  So why should we assume the 40k and the work by Tillinghast and Lees needs to be on the grounds of the Cascades golf course?  The Rubino, Thompson and sharecroppers 1/4 acre parcel were not in the hands of the resort until Flynn and Ingalls walked the grounds together.  We have a couple of preconstruction photos of the site and it is raw land.  Are you speculating that Tillinghast and Lees did something before the property was acquired or after Flynn completed the design and construction?  Based on the information at hand (which you've seen a small fraction), do you agree they couldn't have done anything before Flynn arrived on the scene?

I'll present you with a copy of the 1932 Spectator and we'll see what that entire article indicates, but at this point, I'd rather you put the effort into proving Tillinghast and Lees did work on the Cascades site rather than Tom or I trying to convince you that they did not.  It is too difficult to prove the negative and I look forward to seeing if you prove the positive.  Frankly, I don't have time for this and I'm not sure why you are not yet convinced.  Is anyone else not convinced that Tillinghast had nothing to do with the Cascades?

[wsmorrison]

Cascades 1923 (designed by Flynn built by resort team and locals including Sam Snead who hauled wheelbarrows of dirt to 4 green as a little kid)

Westchester 1920 (built by Flynn) and 1922 (probably Toomey and Flynn at that point)

Burning Tree 1924 (built by Toomey and Flynn)

[ForkaB]

Sounds great, Eckstein, but the GCA history Nazis are going to eat you alive......

[TEPaul]

"But unless I have completely misunderstood what you've both written, and I recognize that might be so, that is not THE ENTIRE PROPERTY that the Cascades course is built upon! They did own what would appear to be atleast half of the property that the course would be built upon."

Phil:

I can't imagine where you came up with that notion. Neither Wayne nor I ever said anything like that.

The Cascades golf course's land is made up of three former properties as Wayne explained;

1. The so-called Rubino property that was owned by New York stock broker J.B. Haggin at the time of its purchase by The Homestead Corporation.

2. The Thompson Farm which holes #5, 6, 7, 8, 9 are on.

3. A 1/4 acre plot with a shack on it formerly used be 'a negro squatter'.

That was the extent of what The Cascades is on today. The Rubino property encompassed far more than just the land the Cascades is on and the Thompson property was a total of 242 acres. Ingalls and The Homestead corporation bought the Rubino property the day after Flynn said he could builld a course on those three parcels. Ingalls acquired an option on the Thompson farm the day Flynn was looking at the land for the course.

So I just don't know where you got this idea that The Homestead owned any of the land that The Cascades is on much less up to half of it.

This misunderstanding is probably the sole reason you keep pursuing this question of Tillinghast and Lees doing something on The Cascades course's land prior to Flynn coming down there to look at it.

I'll say it one more time----prior to Flynn coming there that day and passing on the suitibility of ALL the land The Cascades is now on the Homestead Corporation owned NONE OF THAT LAND---zero, zip, ziltich.

So, how could Tillinghast and Lees have been paid app $40,000 to do architectural work (clearling, design, construction, seeding) on land The Homestead Corporation DID NOT YET OWN?  

[wsmorrison]

Eckstein,

I think you are out of touch on this subject.  I am not going to waste my time disproving your wild stab in the dark.  Even Phil's speculations are not based upon any comprehensive research effort but at least he's trying.  You are merely guessing without knowing anything.

Read all the posts carefully, the case is made for no attribution to Tillinghast.  Tillinghast looked at the Rubino site years before Flynn and declared the land not suited for golf.  Flynn looked at it differently and engineered a tremendous redesign of the landscape creating a natural looking golf course in the end.  Tillinghast didn't have the vision or means at the time to see that a great course could be designed and built there.  Who was proved right?

I'm sure you know little to nothing about Flynn and have a justly high regard for Tillinghast.  But your efforts amount to revisionism or positivism in favor of Tillinghast and at the expense of Flynn as an architect and his integrity.  Shame.

[TEPaul]

Eckstein:

Unless the owner of The Homestead is totally lying there is no question he hired Flynn and Flynn alone. We have the owner's very detailed written chroncile of The Cascades Golf Course and it has nothing whatsoever in it to do with A.W. Tillinghast.

According to The Homestead's owner, Fay Ingalls, apparently Peter Lees (and Tillinghast ?) were hired to do a golf course prior to the Cascades on land much closer to the hotel. That course was in the process of being constructed PRIOR TO The Cascades golf course and that project ran into all kinds of problems mostly to do with the unsuitability of the land that was not known when the project was begun. That course was basically never finiished and it was referred to by Ingalls as 'the unfortunate Peter Lee (sic) experiment.' That project was halted BEFORE Flynn came to The Homestead and BEFORE any of the land The Cascades course is on was purchased by The Homstead Corporation.

None of this should be hard to understand and unless some of you think we're lying for some reason or Fay Ingalls, The Homestead's owner, was lying about what he wrote about his own golf projects for some reason then basically there is no way Tillinghast could've had anything to do with the golf course that is now known as The (Upper) Cascades G.C. Basically the timing makes Tillinghast's involvement impossible.

But if Phil continues to pursue this advertisement thing by Tillinghast in which he appears to take credit for The Cascades golf course when Wayne and I get the time we will try to look into why that advertisement happened.

Frankly, I'd prefer not to do that, though----I'd prefer to just drop it because I have a very strong suspicion if any of us do get to the bottom of that Tillinghast advertisement it is not going to put Tillinghast in a favorable light at all.

[TEPaul]

"Tillinghast looked at the Rubino site years before Flynn and declared the land not suited for golf.  Flynn looked at it differently and engineered a tremendous redesign of the landscape creating a natural looking golf course in the end.  Tillinghast didn't have the vision or means at the time to see that a great course could be designed and built there.  Who was proved right?"

Wayne:

All I'm looking at is Fay Ingalls's own account in his book "The Valley Road" of the Cascades course. In that account he doesn't mention Tillinghast looking at the Rubino property years before (although I am aware you have something that mentions that).

As to the lack of suitability of the Rubino property for a golf course Ingalls only mentions Raynor did not think it was suitable but in fairness to Raynor (and probably Tillinghast who apparently looked at it also perhaps a few years before Flynn) it should be mentioned that Ingalls did say the Thompson farm was not considered when Raynor looked at the Rubino property and consequently there really was not enough suitable land on the Rubino property for a golf course. Perhaps that was the reason Tillinghast felt the Rubino property was not suitable for a golf course too.

[wsmorrison]

You are absolutely right to bring up the fact that Tillinghast, Lees and Raynor did not consider the same properties that make up the current Cascades GC.  Perhaps the Thompson farm was not available when the other architects looked at it or they did not consider to investigate what properties combined would provide a suitable golf course.  In any case, it would be unfair to characterize their observation of the site in a negative light since we just don't know what factors were in play at any given time.  My posting was misleading.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom & Wayne,

Final word from me on this as it has gotten completely out of hand.

I am NOT pursuing this because of the advertisement, rather I am trying to find out Tilly's involvement down there and what $40-50,000 was spent on and why anyone would intimate that it was on the Cascades course as the article as presented to me does.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Did you not understand what I said earlier that it is and was more than possible that anything up and down that entire valley that The Homestead resort is in could be and could've been referred to as "Cascades"?

Can you understand why that may've been the reason what Tillinghast and Lees did for The Homestead although it was not on the same land as the present Upper Cascades course could've been referred to as the Cascades golf course? Did you know there is another course owned by The Homestead called the Lower Cascades? It's probably 7-8 miles from the Upper Cascades golf course, and about four miles in the opposite direction from the hotel. In my opinion, the name "Cascades" down there in Hot Springs seems to be fairly undefined and a bit less than geographically specific either both now or back then or both.  

The land the course that Tillinghast and Lees worked on for The Homestead, according to The Homestead historian John Hoover, was about two miles north of the Upper Cascades course and much closer to the hotel.

That course no longer exists but the work on it by Lees and Tillinghast PRECEDED the the Upper Cascades course by Flynn by a few years. That golf course is sometimes referred to as the "goat" course but can you not understand, Phil, that when it was under construction it very well may've been referred to as "The Cascades Golf Course" I very much doubt when it was under construction it was referred to by The Homestead as the "goat" course.  Again, it may've been referred to as the Cascades golf course.

That would seem fairly logical because at that time there WAS NO OTHER Cascades golf course. The only golf course at that time belonging to The Homestead Resort was called The Homestead golf course right next to the hotel.

When you say this discussion has gotten out of hand you ain't kidding. This progression of events we've been explaining to you just shouldn't be this hard for you to understand.

If it really is then maybe you should just do the research on The entire Homestead Resort and its golf courses like we have.

 

[wsmorrison]

Eckstein,

I appreciate you trying to find a way where we're all right to an extent.  That is a considerate thing to do if feelings are to be highly prioritized.  Like I told Mark Fine on this or another thread, its starting to get blurry, there's no need to worry about pleasing everybody.  Truth is the end we're all searching for.  Of course its nice to come up with new information or shatter old myths, but we cannot let ourselves be led by this but rather by a real standardized practice of the scientific method.  This takes any bias out of the equation.  Interestingly, I've been accused in IMs and maybe on here as well of being tremendously biased when it comes to Flynn.  I dismiss this talk, especially by SL or MW, as nonsense and unworthy of consideration.  They don't know how Tom and I go about our work and speak in ignorance.

Thank you for trying to find a happy common ground for us all.  I know we would rather have the truth and own up to it.  We're safe, because all we are saying is "based on the information at hand."  In the case of Cascades, the information is overwhelming in quantity and quality of content.  We are standing on firm ground.

[wsmorrison]

I won't mention names, so it doesn't pay to hazaard a guess.  I will tell you that SL Solow and I have never had cross words.  As for Matt Ward, we obviously have on this site in many instances.  In any case, it might be that they referred to a number of unnamed individuals that feel this way about my work and me.  I could care less what their own opinions are.  

[TEPaul]

Eckstein:

I don't think you're out of touch. I don't think there really are conflicting reports that came out of the Homestead, it simply appears to seem that way to some on here  probably due to a misunderstanding about course names and course locations at The Homestead over the years.