[Stu Grant]

Can anyone tell me how many yards deep the 12th green is at Augusta?  Even better, how deep is it at its shallowest point and how deep is it as its most forgiving line of approach?

Having never played it, I'm trying to get an appreciation for how exacting one's distance control must be on this hole from the tee 155 yards out.

Obviously you can't hit it short of the green at 12 unless you are Fred Couples in 1992.  How much room for error do you have behind the green if you miss long?  Assume for these questions that you do not hit one of the bunkers.

Thanks for any feedback

[Andy Doyle]

My 2005 yardage guide shows the the left side to be 16 yards deep, with the neck 10 and the right side 15 yards deep, respectively.

The 1996 guide shows 14, 9, and 11.

The 1999 guide shows 14, 9, and 13.

Slightly changing green size?

So in answer to your question - not much!

Andy

[Stu Grant]

Hey Andy,

Right on.  That's exactly what I was looking for.  9-16 yards deep certainly isn't very much, particularly with swirling winds!

We've got a penal hole at my home course that's also about 150 yards long that it is quite hard to find the putting surface and I wondered how the 12th at Augusta compared to it as far as deepness of the green (ours is about 14 yards deep but our green is at the top of a hill about 25-30 feet above the tee, thus increasing the difficulty of holding the green)

Thanks again

SG  

[Pete Lavallee]

What interests me is why the 12th plays so difficult for such a short hole. Sure the swirling wind has an effect, just how much I couldn't say. But the real difficulty of the 12th is that the angle of the green, from 7:30 to 1:30 is contrary to the miss pattern of righthanded golfers. Righties either miss short right (club face open at impact, adding more loft) or long left (club closed, reducing loft). The announcers mentioned this year that Mike Wier is -7 for his career there; one bogey and eight birdies. Well no wonder he's a lefty! Wonder what Phil's cumalative score for that hole is?

[Stu Grant]

That's a really good point Pete, I'd never thought all of my short-right and long-left misses before but that is absolutely true.

[Andy Doyle]

Pete:

It seems to me the angle of that green would be set up perfectly for a gentle fade - have the ball coming in somewhat along the long axis of the green.  As a righty that tends to fade the ball, the hole sets up well to my eye.  Of course I've never played it, so my thoughts here are probably just hot air.

Stu:

Behind the green there appears to be a little swale for a yard or two, then it looks like the ground slopes up into the trees/azaleas.  If you go long, you're likely to be chipping off a downhill lie onto a really fast green sloping away from you towards the water.  Man I would love to play that hole!

Andy

[Phil Benedict]

What interests me is why the 12th plays so difficult for such a short hole. Sure the swirling wind has an effect, just how much I couldn't say. But the real difficulty of the 12th is that the angle of the green, from 7:30 to 1:30 is contrary to the miss pattern of righthanded golfers. Righties either miss short right (club face open at impact, adding more loft) or long left (club closed, reducing loft). The announcers mentioned this year that Mike Wier is -7 for his career there; one bogey and eight birdies. Well no wonder he's a lefty! Wonder what Phil's cumalative score for that hole is?

This is one of the most insightful comments I've ever heard on this site.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete:

It seems to me the angle of that green would be set up perfectly for a gentle fade - have the ball coming in somewhat along the long axis of the green.  As a righty that tends to fade the ball, the hole sets up well to my eye.  Of course I've never played it, so my thoughts here are probably just hot air.

Andy,

Not really, unless you hit the shot with exactly the amount of open clubface you had anticpated. If the clubface is a little more open than you planned the shot still comes up short and right of where you aimed. If the clubface ends up square at impact you are still long and left of your aim point. Playing the fade might be more comfortable to your eye, but gives you no greater  margin for error on this hole than a draw or straight shot, IMHO.

[Phil Benedict]

What interests me is why the 12th plays so difficult for such a short hole. Sure the swirling wind has an effect, just how much I couldn't say. But the real difficulty of the 12th is that the angle of the green, from 7:30 to 1:30 is contrary to the miss pattern of righthanded golfers. Righties either miss short right (club face open at impact, adding more loft) or long left (club closed, reducing loft). The announcers mentioned this year that Mike Wier is -7 for his career there; one bogey and eight birdies. Well no wonder he's a lefty! Wonder what Phil's cumalative score for that hole is?

This is one of the most insightful comments I've ever heard on this site.

By this reasoning, Jack Nicklaus in the early years was a genius.  He set up a lot of greens this way and was lambasted for so obviously favoring  a high, soft fade...

My point was that I had never heard the concept of miss pattern as the reason for the difficulty of the hole.  To me at least, this is a pretty original thought as far as the 12th is concerned.  It also has the ring of truth to it.  Like most right-handed golfers, I tend to miss short right and long left, which leads to lots of bad outcomes on this particular hole.  Most of us on this site, including me, tend to make the same point over and over again or repeat conventional wisdom.  Pete's the genius, not Jack Nicklaus.

[Pete Lavallee]

 Pete's the genius, not Jack Nicklaus.

Wow, can use this as a new tag line?

Actally Phil, it was Dave Pelz who discovered this pattern; before he specialized in the short game he followed Tour Pros for several years charting their shot patterns. He expected to find a random, circular distribution of misses. Instead he found a "bra, rotated from 4:30 to 10:30". It is contained in his Short Game Bible. It does make a lot of sense though. It certainly does explain why the 12th plays so damn tough for right handers. I often wonder whether architects understand this principle and incorporate it into their designs. We must all, through experience, at least sense it subconciously to some extent.

[jeffwarne]

Dave Pelz discovered this pattern??
Perhaps it was the first place you saw it in print, but any teaching professional or caddie who's spent any time on the course with amateurs is aware of this. As are hopefully most better players when assessing strategy in their own game.


It doesn't take away the fact that Pete's observation on #12 was excellent.

[Pete Lavallee]

Dave Pelz discovered this pattern??
Perhaps it was the first place you saw it in print, but any teaching professional or caddie who's spent any time on the course with amateurs is aware of this. As are hopefully most better players when assessing strategy in their own game.

I stand corrected.

[Tom_Doak]

I think most architects have been well aware of the missed-shot tendencies of average golfers for longer than just today.  At least, I've been aware that a short-right hazard is going to see more action than others for quite some time.

[Phil Benedict]

To praise Pete one last time, in all the years I have watched the Masters, which is more than I would like to admit, I have never heard Lanny, Venturi, Nance or any one else make this point about that hole.  Any even if Pelz originated the observation about miss patterns, it was Pete who applied it correctly.  

I stand by my original comment about how insightful Pete's analysis is.  And I've never evem met the guy!

[Jim Johnson]

Looking at the photo, the angle of the green is pretty evident. Wouldn't want to hit that shot on Sunday afternoon!

JJ

[peter_p]

  The problem is exacerbated when they move to the left tee box, escpecially on Sunday. I can't remember if the tees are used 2/2 or 1/3 days left vs right.
  The difference in yardage depth might be attributable to which tee is being used.

[Steve_Lemmon]

OK, to a casual student like me, the comments about the shot patterns are profound.  I am rethinking my second shots into all the greens at my course.  
But, back to the 12th:   When the green is very firm, that shot from the back bunker to the Sunday pin (right) has to be spot on perfect, otherwise there is a great chance of dunking it into the water with your second shot - sure death to a round.  If you are facing a downhill lie in the bunker, I think you maybe have to think about intentionally leaving it in the bunker on a flat lie, to be able to spin your third.  I saw Couples do this in an early round a few years ago.  That scenario (along with other second shot horrors) has to be in the back of your mind during the tee shot.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Just a few thoughts on this subject. Although to a better player and teacher  like Jeff the shot dipersion is common knowledge, I played golf for  20 years before I read about it in Pelz's book and it never dawned on me that shot dispersion for right handers worked this way. In fact even Pelz who is obviously a smart guy and trained to think like an engineer didn't anticipate finding this specific pattern; he thought shot dispersion would be random. It should be noted that Pelz was a very good golfer playing for the University of Indiana; but continued drubbings from some kid named Nicklaus from Ohio State convinced him he'de be better off working for NASA. So Tom mentions that he's well aware that short right hazards get more action. But do architects aviod or include greens angled from 7:30 to 1:30 because of it's inherent difficulty for the majority of golfers?

I tried to think of other famous greens angled in this orientation; certainly the 10th at Riviera comes imeadiately to mind. The original 16th at Augusta played with this orientation as well. However the only other examples I could think of are all at Pasatiempo. The 1st, 4th, 7th and 14th are all narrow greens that angle this way. Did MacKenzie use this green orientation elsewhere? Is it just another sign of him choosing bold design concepts often ignored by other architects? He certainly didn't build any mirror image greens to provide balance at either of these course, just coincidence?

[Brent Hutto]

The thirteenth at Cypress Point club is a) much bigger and b) on a Par 4 but it comes to mind as a reverse of the pattern that you're describing. As a lefty slicer, trying to figure out how to play that approach shot into a one-club breeze sort of blew my mind (or maybe it was the four putts from the fringe on the previous hole).

Greens that are oriented like the twelfth at ANGC generally allow me to take plenty of club and go over the bunker knowing that a weak fade will finish around the front fringe left of the bunker (neglecting for a moment the tinyness of the target at ANGC #12 and the wind). Turn them around the other way and I have to worry about too much club going over the green on the right and my weak fade bailout finishing in the left bunker. My home course has a Par 3 green with the angle to the right and front-right bunker, playing over water. I certainly put it in the water or in the front bunker much less often than similarly high-handicap right-handers.

[Doug Siebert]

I'm frankly a bit astounded that anyone here would find that righties missing long left and short right is a new thought.  I've always found the typical "longer than it is deep" green more easily approached from the left rough than the right for that reason.  Luckily my usual miss off the tee is to the left

[Patrick_Mucci]

What interests me is why the 12th plays so difficult for such a short hole. Sure the swirling wind has an effect, just how much I couldn't say. But the real difficulty of the 12th is that the angle of the green, from 7:30 to 1:30 is contrary to the miss pattern of righthanded golfers. Righties either miss short right (club face open at impact, adding more loft) or long left (club closed, reducing loft). The announcers mentioned this year that Mike Wier is -7 for his career there; one bogey and eight birdies. Well no wonder he's a lefty! Wonder what Phil's cumalative score for that hole is?

Pete,

While I would agree with you, I think there are other factors that come into play.

The configuration of the green in relationship to the angle of the tee and the angle of the tee relative to the hole locations to the far left and far right create an uncomfortable angle for the golfer when the tee points to other than those locations.

Secondly, the green is flat and it's difficult to see any depth in the green, let alone the scope of the putting surface.

When you combine the five factors, wind, your alignment issue, tee angle to green configuration, lack of green definition, with sand and water, you get a hole that can present a challenge well beyond its yardage.[/color]

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()