Augusta's par 5s - lacking interesting options?

[TomSteenstrup]

As much as I enjoy seeing the pros play them, I have to say that Augusta National's par 5s only appear interesting, if you are able to reach the greens in two. There are no strategic choices for a golfer that is forced to play them as three shot holes. Hence, the holes must be considered inferior par 5s.      

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

As you play up the 13th fairway with your second shot, the options change with every ten yards you hit the ball, and hole locations can have a dramtic effect on not only the third shot, but the second shot as well.

Stop thinking vertically, expand your thinking laterally and you might just get an understanding of the abundance of options.

Are your opinions based solely on what you've seen on TV ?

If not, what are they based upon ?

[Brad Klein]

Tom,

there certainly are strategic choices on those holes when you stand on the tee and decide what club to hit and where. It's esp. the case on 13, but also evident at 2 and 15 as you think about where to and how to turn over the tee shot.

You don't have your interesting mid-fairway bunkers to deal weith on seocnd shots, but given the angle of the water and the slope of the greens on 13 and 15, you also face a choice of how far back to lay up and what to leave yourself for a third shot - that is for the vast majority of us real golfers for whom reaching par-5s in two is exceptional rather than the rule.

I also think the 8th green with its elephantine mounds is vastly under-rated. Very tough to hold from the left side, much easier to hold coming in from the right.

On many of the par-4s, the recovery option has been removed from the sides of fairways, but even for mid-handicappers, the par-5s remain great.

[George Pazin]

Man, there have been plenty of times I've seen guys hit 3rd shots, and not particularly good ones at that. If there's one thing in particular that seems especially strong about Augusta, it's the par 5s.

[Jim Johnson]

Some pics of Augusta's 13th, from Monday's practice round...







First of all, I am biased... ... I must admit that this hole is my absolute favorite in all of golf. The beauty of it is awe-inspiring. The strategy involved is infinite. Patrick is bang-on...the options change as you move down the fairway.

Farther back, a long iron will react differently on the green's slopes than a shorter iron from in closer. And, the pin locations certainly do have an effect on a long second shot or a short third shot.

JJ

[Matt_Cohn]

I loved watching #2 today, and I enjoy it even more when pins on the sides of the greens allow the players to get really creative with their shots, angles, and placement. Obviously there were some birdies, but a lot of players struggled a lot with it - Sergio, Goosen, and Ben Crenshaw (that was tough to watch). The rough played only a small role and I don't think there are any new trees - just the old ones waiting to catch an overagressive teeshot and the usual crazy stuff around the greens.

I think #2 is a very interesting hole, even though it doesn't get much attention, because it's one of the holes where angles and placement still matter tremendously.

[TomSteenstrup]

OK - so I can see there may be subtle factors that I cannot be aware of not having played it, but to continue my initial line of thought: What is there to affect my choice in second shot on any of the holes? E.g.: The 8th has a very interesting green complex, I can see that. However, the way to the green holds very little interest for the second shot. I can essentially hit whatever club I want to my place of choice anywhere on that big fairway and have a comfortable, full third shot with my favorite wedge. Shouldn't there be something to generate interest - or is the second shot really just a transport to the more interesting third? Same line of thought for the 15th, although the slope of the fairway does force you to carefully consider how far the second will actually go.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is: Comparing to e.g. the 14th on the Old Course, aren't the par 5s of Augusta too focused on go-for-the-green golf?

I am essentially clueless, yes. Doesn't stop me from being curious though.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tom S:  I do believe that three of the four par-5's at Augusta it really matters which side of the fairway you are hitting that wedge shot from, and to what pin.  This is certainly true of the second and 15th holes.

It's a bit less true of #8, mostly because it's harder to visualize what's required because the second shot is so far uphill and you've only seen the flag while walking to the second tee.  But if you miss to the left and have to come over the mounds you are toast; if the pin is in back you definitely want to be way over on the right; and there is one right pin where you'd rather come straight in.

I do agree with your premise in regard to #15 -- I've never thought that was a great hole, even before I chunked two wedge shots into the water on my first round there.  That wedge shot off a downhill lie is one of the toughest shots at Augusta, even for the pros.

[Anthony Butler]

I do agree with your premise in regard to #15 -- I've never thought that was a great hole, even before I chunked two wedge shots into the water on my first round there.  That wedge shot off a downhill lie is one of the toughest shots at Augusta, even for the pros.

I recall Tiger hit a sorry excuse for a pitch shot on #15 in thursday's round that barely touched the bank before it went in the water. Given the short game skills of the players, if you can clear the water for your second you're better going for it no matter if you can hold the green or not. With the extra 30yds, you would have to absolutely nut your drive first.

[Pete Lavallee]

Shouldn't there be something to generate interest - or is the second shot really just a transport to the more interesting third?

Many people, including Hootie, seem to be thinking this way these days. Even on 11, where golfers were allowed to find the best path to the hole for themselves, with no obvious sign from the architect, people can't seem to embrace this strategy. They seem to feel that without a hazard to avoid the shot has no interest. I imagine that players trying to hit it down the right side of 11 would be very uncomfortable over their second shots if they had hit them way left. Must we always face a physical penalty, or can a mental obstacle present just as much difficulty to the golfer?

[Phil Benedict]

I do agree with your premise in regard to #15 -- I've never thought that was a great hole, even before I chunked two wedge shots into the water on my first round there.  That wedge shot off a downhill lie is one of the toughest shots at Augusta, even for the pros.

I recall Tiger hit a sorry excuse for a pitch shot on #15 in thursday's round that barely touched the bank before it went in the water. Given the short game skills of the players, if you can clear the water for your second you'd be better off going for it no matter if you can hold the green or not. With the extra 30yds, you would have to absolutely nut your drive first-there's less kick forward off the mounds on the right now.

Tiger was in a deep divot; otherwise it is unlikely he would have put it in the water.  He made a bad choice trying to clear the pond given the lie.

[BCrosby]

I sometimes think that there are two fundamentally different ways of looking at a golf course. People who view it one way don't communicate very well with people who view it the other way.

There is a simple test to figure out which group you are in.

Walk behind the 8th tee at ANGC and look up the fairway.

One group of people sees a long, uninteresting hole without very much that can get you in trouble. They feel an urge to build more bunkers in the landing areas. They point out that the green lies naked and that even badly missed approaches won't find a hazard. They note with disdain that the penalty for a missed shot on the hole is not proportional to the magnitude of the miss.

Another group of people sees a marvelously complex set of possible routes to the green.

The two groups of people might as well be speaking different languages.

Bob

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