Is Torresdale Frankford (Ross) in phila ?.....

[mark chalfant]

the most interesting Ross course in Phliadelphia.I love Lulu and
some rave about Aronimink but where does Torresdale stand
in the memorability/ fun to play category...... thanks !

[Craig_Rokke]

Mark-

Haven't played Aronimink or LuLu, but I sure enjoyed
T-F. It's truly a fun place to play golf. As far as Phila area courses go, my feeling is that it is deserving of a bit more recognition.

[JSlonis]

Mark,

I've played quite a few rounds at Torresdale Frankford.  It's a very fun golf course with a wide variety of holes.  There are quite a few very short par 4's intermixed with some brutes. The par 3's are all very solid. The greens are quite sloped and contoured as well, making them "what should be" the prime defense.  Unfortunately, the course is in need of a lot of tree removal.  There are too many instances where very good holes are being choked up by trees.

I wouldn't call it the most interesting Ross course in Philly, but it still is quite good.  I believe Torresdale is hosting the GAP Amateur Championship this June.

[TEPaul]

Mark;

There's maybe 5-8 Ross courses in the Delware Valley and they are very different, one from the other, to say the least.

In one form or another they are;

LuLu
Torresdale Frankford
Gulph Mills
Riverton
St Davids
Kennett Square (9)
Jeffersonville
Aronomink
There are a few NLEs like Sunnybrook and maybe Chester Valley (totally redesigned)

[Mike_Trenham]

Although a few holes have been rerouted over the years most of the features appear original.  The bunkers are all very different from each other an interesting place to see just from that perspective.  BTW few look like #2.

[mike_malone]

Mark,

   There is a very good course at TF. Unfortunately, it is covered up by trees . Ross created some very interesting green complexes involving elevation changes and interesting bunkering combined with intriguing green slopes.As Jamie stated , there is an nice mixture and flow to the course as well.
    But, if you can only approach the greens from the fairway they lose their luster. Either get it in the fairway on your teeshot or chip it out from the trees for your approach.The result becomes a too similar result for too many holes.

  The #3 green complex is among the very best in Philly, but the approaches from left and right are gone. #4 has a pine tree standing guard on the right of the tee to make sure you hit that teeshot straight or else! #5 has a string of bunkers that run up the hill on the left side, but there are trees on the left that push you away from that angle.
    #6 has two rows of trees on the right--I guess one is not enough!! #7 has trees before and after the right fairway bunker---Thank God they aren't trying to grow grass in that bunker!! #8 back tee is hugged by pines like that aunt you wanted to avoid as a child. This pushes the teeshot to the right into the trees that cover up a great old building that would be a wonderful natural blind shot.

  #9 has trees on the right to protect #10 tee. What's more important---the tee safety or the approach to the green? I think a creative person could design a new relationship between #9-#10-#18 to bring out the underlying features.

#12 has a wonderful set of fairway bunkers on the left,set into the hill. It seems to me that more could be easily added to the slope farther on..But no; just put in some evergreens.

 #15 is very short and has possibly the most internal green contour and combination of interesting bunkering on the course.But you have to turn back the clock forty years or more to experience an off center chance to go at that green. The designed interest has been traded in for a target golf shot found practically anywhere.

  They have a daunting challenge here because their surroundings are past their best times. It seems that private courses in the city limits struggle for survival. A restoration seems to be a tough sell in that case.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I've only played Kennett Square and walked Aronimink so I can't really answer your question.

I belong to Torresdale and agree with everything that has been said.  Thankfully this winter tree removal has begun and it is definitely needed. Kyle Harris and Wayne went over a few weeks ago to walk the course with super Brian Mazey. I will be there this weekend to see the work myself.

The biggest tree problems are on 3 and 8 like malone said. 3 is definitely one of the best approaches and greens in the area, and everyone knows how tough the 8th is, especially after 6 and 7 (420 and 440 respectively). 8 is 474 from the back tee.

[mike_malone]

 Bill,

    I prefer the old green placement on #8 . If the water were in back of the green it would create a shot not available anywhere else on the course. It also would be a blind shot for many. With that water in back it would really screw with players' minds. Now you just make sure you get it OVER the water. This is a shot that is more interestingly available on #11 with a diagonal creek. These old guys (Ross) knew what they were doing.

[Craig_Rokke]

Bill-

Glad to hear about the tree work. I'm sure the end result will be an even better course.

[mike_malone]

 Here are my musings on #9-#10tee-and#18.

    If the #10 tee could be moved above and to the right of #9 green it would enable that tree to the right of the #9 green to be removed. If the fairway on #18 were narrowed and moved right and the left fairway bunker moved to the right also I think it makes the whole area better.


     The frustrating but hopeful thing about TF is that the course is already there;it just needs to be unmasked!

[Bill Shotzbarger]

malone,

As you may or may not know, the 9th green has been diseased as long as I remember. The greenskeeper always has this green running a little slower than the other ones, but this isn't too much of a problem because the severe slope and two-tiers require the green to be slower. Do you feel that tree could be a reason as to why the green is diseased?

The problem with your proposal is that there is hardly any room already in that entire area from the 9th green to grant avenue. Right now there is the 18th fairway, then about 5 yards of rough on the right, and then a sharp slope that goes right up to a fence and curb of Grant avenue. It would be pretty hard to move the fairway to the right at all.

Many years ago the City took part of the club's land in order to widen Grant ave. and ruined the 17th hole which was said to be better than the 8th. I've never even seen what the hole looked like.

[tomgoutman]

Bill:
The aerial shot in the men's locker room, circa 1940 (?), gives you a good idea about what the 17th looked like. I think Torresdale is one of the most under-rated courses in the Philadelphia area.

[mike_malone]

 Bill,

   It may be necessary to create a rough line across the exisiting #18 fairway to force big hitters to lay back. I agree that the right side doesn't allow much but the left can be narrowed. I also think the whole fairway could point straight towards the fence. Obviously it is tough to get done.

   I think the tree I mentiond doesn't help, but there are a few on the hill in back on the left of #18 that could go to allow balls to go left but beyond #9 green. There also is a hill in back of #9 that makes airflow a tough problem. Your problems there remind me of similar problems we have at Rolling Green for greens set down with trees on the hill.


       Bill,

   I did say "someone who is creative". I don't claim to be that person.