[Tommy Williamsen]

I was reading the book,"Historic Golf Courses of America." The book makes a case ofr the establishment of a National reegistry of historic golf Courses.

  Given what might happen to Deepdale CC and eminent domain, has a national registry been created?  I could not find one through google.

[SPDB]

Even if a registry is created, Deepdale, in my opinion, should not appear on it.  

[Kirk Gill]

According to what I can find, there are 19 golf-related listings on the National Registry of Historic Places. One of them is a miniature golf course, so you'll have to decide whether it counts or not. For what it's worth, here are the 19:

1.) Golf, Gun, and Country Club, Fairhope, Alabama (I believe this is just a clubhouse building, and not a course)

2.) City Park Golf Course, Denver, Colorado (I can vouch for the fact that this course fits into the "rat-ass muni" category)

3.) Hartford Golf Club Historic District, West Hartford, CT (The boundaries of the district as defined in the registry appear to include the golf course (27 holes). The club's website (http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org) indicates that the architects were Devereaux Emmett and Donald Ross, originally built in 1896. I believe this course was the subject of some debate on this site regarding the contributions of Mr. McGovern.)

4.) Langston Golf Course Historic District, Washington D.C. (The boundaries of the district include the course. I can't find much info on the course after a quick look, but it appears to not be much to get excited about.)

5.) Winter Park Country Club and Golf Course, Winter Park, Florida (The original course was laid out by John Dunn in 1900, according to a historical website devoted to the course (http://www.geocities.com/brendonelliott/golf_history.html). Does not, at this point, look to be much from a golf course perspective.)

6.) Le Mars Municipal Park and Golf Course Historic District, Le Mars, Iowa (All I can find is that a 9-hole golf course was opened here in 1936, but I have no knowledge of its significance or historical relevance.)

7.) Otis Park and Golf Course, Bedford, Indiana (Other than it was built in 1923, I couldn't find much else about the course.)

8.) East Baton Rouge City Park Golf Course, Baton Rouge, Louisiana (There was a move afoot last year to demolish this Thomas Bendelow design, but I am not sure how that all turned out.)

9.) Knox Mequnticook Golf Club, Rockport, Maine (A quick search revealed no information about this club, but the historic interest appears to be the club building, not the course. Any additional information would be appreciated).

10.) Keweenaw Mountain Lodge and Golf Course Complex, Copper Harbor, Michigan (Appears to have been built in 1933, but could find no info on architect.)

11.) Tall Maples Miniature Golf Course, Sea Breeze, New York (Now called Whispering Pines Miniature golf course, it opened in 1930 and was designed by Donald Ross. Ok, I'm kidding about that.)

12.) Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, Southampton, New York (You may have heard of this one.)

13.) Euclid Golf Allotment, Cleveland Heights, Ohio (The first nine holes of the course were built in 1901, designed by William Herbert Way (runner up in the 1899 U.S. Open). Another 9 holes were developed, but the land for them was donated with the stipulation that golf not be played on the sabbath. This restriction, amongst other factors, cause the Euclid golf club itself to move in 1912, and the course no longer exists. The Historic District is the housing area where the course used to sit.)

14.) Stark Clearview Golf Club, East Canton, Ohio (The only golf course designed, built, owned, and operated by an African American (William Powell), the original 9 holes of this course were opened in 1948. Interesting history, but I couldn't find any reviews of the course itself.)

15.) Merion Golf Club East and West Courses, Ardmore, Pennsylvania (I have not played it, but I hear it is pretty good. Very good. Ok, classically and impeccably good. It would be interesting to know whether or not the courses' designation as National Historic Places created any issues for work that has been done on the course, as I'm not sure how much pull the Historic Registry has when Federal Funding is not involved.)

16.) Belle Meade Golf Links Subdivision, Nashville, Tennessee (The boundaries of the Historic District appear to include the golf course of the Belle Meade Country Club, designed by Donald Ross in 1901. The course is not, however, the primary cause of the historical designation, but instead is an amenity to the neighborhood which has many mansions and estates. It is apparently the "old money" section of Nashville.)

17.) Weber El Monte Golf Course Clubhouse, Ogden, Utah (The course itself, a 9-hole affair with nice views, is not actually on the Historic Registry.)

18.) Menomonee Golf Club, Waukesha, Wisconsin (Now called the North Hills Country Club, this course is the home of the annual Vince Lombardi Golf Classic. Built in 1929, I called the club and asked them who designed the course. They laughed and told me "someone from Illinois." Any additional info would be appreciated.)

19.) Opequon Golf Club, Martinsburg, West Virginia (I have no additional information about this club or course.)


It is interesting that there are really only three "classic" courses listed. Is there some negative for a club in a listing? Why do more classic clubs not apply to be on the list? Is it fear of Federal interference, or apathy regarding the list?

[TEPaul]

I believe it certainly is possible for a golf course (and certainly its buildings) to be listed on the National Registry of Historic Places. I believe Oakmont is and I think Merion too. It's a Federal designation and has to do with historic places not necessarily the fame or quality of golf architecture per se----at least I don't believe that's a criterion. Could it become that? That's a very interesting question.

[wsmorrison]

Does being registered with the federal government allow the maintenance expenses of the golf courses to be tax deductable?

[Brad Tufts]

I tried to look up this list when preliminarily researching my GCA history thesis in college, and it seemed that it only was the result of an organization requesting inclusion on the list.  So, I don't think there is a governemental agency looking for historical places to include, other than maintaining a list.

[Tony Ristola]

Tommy:
A certain Tom MacWood has been making that case for years here.

[TEPaul]

If a registry (National or otherwise) of historic golf courses is created it won't carry the clout or protection to avoid something like an eminent domain action against a club like Deepdale. But if a course is listed on the National Registry of Historic Places as is Oakmont and Merion there's no way in Hell any eminent domain action would ever get off the ground or be considered. Tom MacWood's idea is no doubt based on William Morris's SPAB in 19th century Britain, even if he may not be willing to admit it. Given the juggernaut of Victorian building and redesigning I'm not sure it could be said SPAB was particularly successful and the same type of perservation organization for historic golf courses over here probably never would be either.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy,
I was wondering something similar a couple of months ago, i.e. whether a course could apply for 'protection' under the auspices of an historical act/historical society, and what that might mean if they could.

Wayne Morrison pointed out then that some courses were already registered as historical landmarks, but I'm still not sure what that entails. I think Brad Tufts is right (i.e. organizations self identify and the government simply maintains a list); and from what I could find on-line an 'historical' designation currently gives a course a plaque on a wall, a chance at getting some reductions in property tax, and maybe a sign on a highway directing people to the 'historical site'.

I was a little surpised that some of the great old courses didn't seem to have the 'protection' that some great old buildings have; I'm not sure how that would work, though, or even if it's a particularly good and/or feasible idea.

Peter  

[Kirk Gill]

The information I posted above is from the National Registry of Historic Places database, looking for "golf" references. Mr. Paul is correct, however, as Oakmont is listed under "Oakmont Country Club Historic District." I've started to search for "country club" listings, and will update later, if anyone is interested. For instance, a quick search shows the the Denver Country Club in my neck of the woods is listed (while Cherry Hills is not).

Here is some additional information regarding what it means to be on the list. This is also from the NRHP research team:

The National Register and Property Owners

Established under the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, the national historic preservation program is a partnership between the Federal, State, Tribal and local governments; private organizations; and the public. The Act and its provisions establish the framework within which citizens plan, identify, evaluate, register, and protect significant historic and archeological properties throughout the country. Central to
this framework is the National Register of Historic Places--the Nation's official list of cultural resources worthy of preservation, administered by the National Park Service (NPS), Department of the Interior. Properties listed in the Register include districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that are significant in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture.

Historic places are nominated to the National Register by nominating authorities: the State Historic Preservation Officer (SHPO) of the State in which the property is located, the Federal Preservation Officer (FPO) for properties under Federal ownership or control, or by the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer (THPO) if the property is on tribal lands. Anyone can
prepare a nomination to the National Register; generally nomination forms are documented by property owners, local governments, citizens or SHPO, FPO or THPO staff. During the time that the SHPO, FPO or THPO reviews the proposed nomination, property owners and local officials are notified of
the intent to nominate and public comment is solicited. Owners of private property are given an opportunity to concur in or object to the nomination.

If the owner of a private property, or the majority of private propertyowners for a property or district with multiple owners, objects to the nomination, the historic property cannot be listed in the National Register. In that case, the nominating authority may forward the nomination to the NPS only for a determination of eligibility. If the historic property is listed or determined eligible for listing, then the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation must be afforded the opportunity to
comment on any Federal project that may affect it.
Nominations submitted through the States must first be approved by a Review Board appointed by the SHPO (unless otherwise provided for by state law) before being reviewed by the NPS. Nominating authorities forward nominations to the NPS to be considered for registration if a majority of private property owners has not objected to listing. During the National Register's evaluation of nomination documentation, another opportunity for
public comment is published in the Federal Register.
There are no Federal historic property designations that place Federal restrictions on private property owners. States and localities may have laws to encourage the preservation of their historic places. Some have enacted their own identification procedures; some use listing in the National Register as an indicator of historic significance. State and local historic preservation programs often provide some protection against the
possible harmful effects of State funded, licensed, or assisted projects.

Some provide limited financial assistance to owners in the form of grants, loans, or tax benefits. They may establish other protections for preservation purposes. Programs differ from State to State, and within States; your SHPO or local planning department can provide more information.

Key Points about the National Register Process for Property Owners:

·     Listing in the National Register honors the property by recognizing its importance to its community, State, or the Nation.
·     Many property owners propose National Register nominations.
·     Under Federal law, private property owners can do anything they wish with their National Register-listed property, provided that no Federal license, permit, or funding is involved.
·     Owners have no obligation to open their properties to the public, to restore them, or even to maintain them, if they choose not to do so.
·     To ensure public participation in the nomination process, property owners and local officials are notified of proposed nominations to the National Register and provided the opportunity to comment. In addition, once a nomination is submitted to the National Park Service another public
comment period is published in the Federal Register.
·     Private property owners may object to the proposed nomination of their property to the National Register. If a majority of private property owners objects to a nomination, then the property cannot be listed in the National Register.
·     Federal agencies whose projects affect a listed property must give the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation an opportunity to comment on the project and its effects on the property.
·     Owners of listed properties may be able to obtain Federal historic preservation funding, when funds are available. In addition, Federal investment tax credits for rehabilitation and other provisions may apply.

[Brian_Sleeman]

No one up here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that I've talked to knows for sure who designed the Keweenaw Mountain Lodge 9-hole course.  Langford was active in this area around that time (doing Marquette Golf & Country Club's original 9 plus the 9-hole Iron River CC), but from what I saw, Keweenaw doesn't really fit the style.

It is a pretty cool place though, and you won't find a better spot to take in fall colors.

[Brad Tufts]

After reading the above, it's obvious that this was created in order to stop someone or a group from changing or demolishing a certain historical site or two.  It also seems that the above process is what the local (or national) government wishes they could do if this process was foolproof.  

However, the repeated emphasis on the involvement of the property owner appears to indicate what often happens to the efforts of the proponents of the National Register.  I would guess it has created a few standoffs in its history.  The whole thing seems like a suggestion for owners of historical property to think twice before changing or demolishing something that someone else thinks is important to save.

[mikes1160]

To add to the list, I believe the entire Pinehurst downtown district is on the list (including the resort) I know for a fact that Olympia Fields is on the NR list........

[TEPaul]

If a golf club/course in the future truly wants to protect themselves against something like a local eminent domain action, it isn't exactly protection under any Registry of Historic Places they'd turn to---since that does carry its own historic criterion---it's the use of a Federal Conservation easemnt they would want to consider.

Golf courses using federal conservation easements has heretofore been rare but it is beginning to happen. Applebrook used them recently. It's a risk obviously as they would be giving up some degree of future development potential if the club failed. The other difficult aspect is many clubs are non-profit entities and to take advantage of the tax deductions for federal conservation easements a club would generally have to reform into a limited partnership, for a while at least to take the tax deductions.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Brian, I spent a summer in Copper Harbor 35 years ago and got to know the owner of the hotel.  It seems to me that someone from the hotel laid out a rudimentary course and it just developed over the years depending on availiable capital and who was the superintendant.  I also enjoyed the course but the no seeums in June were enough to make you craaazzzy.

Good discussion the the registry.  I got more than I bargained for.  Just goes to show the accumulated knowledge of the participants on this site.  thanks.

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