News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


John Kavanaugh

Golf Club vs Country Club
« on: March 04, 2006, 09:46:50 AM »
What are the differences and can the architecture of a Golf Club survive in a Country Club environment.  Is everything "Country Club" really evil...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2006, 09:51:30 AM »
John:  Crystal Downs is a country club, but the tennis courts are way away from the clubhouse and golf complex, and it's a summer club so everything is a smaller scale ... it feels more like a golf club.

I've always been amazed that as severe and difficult as Crystal Downs is, it works quite well as a family club, too.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 09:52:20 AM by Tom_Doak »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2006, 09:56:21 AM »
The difference could be in surviving or not surviving within some markets.

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2006, 10:08:26 AM »
John,

Would you say these are decent definitions for discussion:

Country Club

Pool
Tennis courts
Fine Dining
Weddings Parties
Golf
Nice course, but watered
Golf carts with brake lights

Golf Club

Small Clubhouse
“Unfair Holes”
Limited Membership
50% walkers
No fountains
Strong Family Golf Program

Please add or subtract.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 10:13:47 AM by Jason_Hines »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2006, 10:18:48 AM »
Jason - I think that's a good list.

We at French Creek like to think of ourselves as a 'golf club' - no tennis, no pool, and thank gawd - no fountains.  We do have 'unfair holes', a lot of walkers, and completely open tee times for families/spouses (good family golf program).

But we do have a great clubhouse, a wonderful chef (who came over from Glen Mills), and a bunch of weddings.  Fortunately, the weddings help support the club financially, and they're a necessary nusiance.  (Laura and I were married at the old Coatesville (PA) clubhouse - had to have a golf-themed wedding!)  

Jason - by your definition, Stonewall, our next door neighbor, meets all of your golf club definitions other than the strong family golf program.  They don't get much play, due to their limited membership, and I'm betting that they don't have a big junior program.  And I doubt that Pine Valley has a strong junior program either.

But they are most certainly "Golf Clubs" in the truest sense of the word.

Last thing - aren't 99% of courses irrigated to some extent?  If "watered" were a problem for Golf Club, just what would a golf club be?


Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2006, 10:28:28 AM »
Hi Dan,

What I mean by over watered is that to some people, everything has to be immaculate and green which leads to soft fairways and greens.  I guess I don't mind a little brown if it leads to quick conditions. Of course west of here in the Sand Hills (and I am sure other parts of the world) you can have both.  I belong to the country club definition above, but would rather join a "golf club" if it were an option.

Jason

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2006, 10:31:29 AM »
Jason: Absolutely understand - overwatering is horrible.  Just watch Doral today - it seems to be significantly overwatered, especially the greens.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Non-golf activities at Golf Clubs
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2006, 10:39:42 AM »
John:  Crystal Downs is a country club, but the tennis courts are way away from the clubhouse and golf complex, and it's a summer club so everything is a smaller scale ... it feels more like a golf club.

I've always been amazed that as severe and difficult as Crystal Downs is, it works quite well as a family club, too.

Tom, I'm surprised that tennis flourishes as an outdoor activity in Nth. Michigan. Does it ever get warm enough to wear shorts on the court?  ;)

As Ran will attest, there are no "country clubs" in Australia... the one non-golf activity some golf clubs offer is lawn bowls. Anyone who has played at NSWGC will remember the large putting green below the first tee. What you may not know is that 25 years ago it was a 'bowling green'. About 20 years ago, they elected a non-bowling club president who called a general meeting that opened with the statement. "We are gathered here at New South Wales GOLF Club to discuss the future use of the current bowling green." Which explains why the club now has two putting greens...

I much prefer the pure golf atmosphere with all the cranky old bastards out at La Perouse to all the tennis Mums running around in their skirts at Royal Sydney.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 10:54:12 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2006, 11:10:54 AM »
Forget the Pool and Tennis...Is it possible for a Golf Club to have a Country Club night life....I stopped by a Country Club last night and figure there can't be anything wrong with all those people having a great time after dark.  Can you have it both ways..when would you know a Golf Club has crossed the point of no return.  I'm thinking of starting a Stag/Poker night at a Golf Club I am a member and would hate to think I was responsible for putting us on a slippery slope.  We just had a Valentine Day dinner last month and God forbid.. I am scared to even look to see if an Easter Egg hunt looms on the horizon.


Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2006, 11:39:23 AM »
John,

Would you say these are decent definitions for discussion:

Country Club

Pool
Tennis courts
Fine Dining
Weddings Parties
Golf
Nice course, but watered
Golf carts with brake lights

Golf Club

Small Clubhouse
“Unfair Holes”
Limited Membership
50% walkers
No fountains
Strong Family Golf Program

Please add or subtract.



Golf Club = NO tee times



John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 11:48:04 AM »
Mike,

The Country Club I went to last night has 700 golfing members and no tee times (36 holes).  A separate building for the pro shop helps keep the worlds apart.

I once took my wife, who is not a country club kinda girl, to look at the renovation plans proposed for a club I used to be a member.  When she saw the huge room above the pro shop was to be a Ball Room she actually asked the pro.."Why do you need such a big room for the balls.."...Golf Clubs don't have ball rooms..

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2006, 11:56:10 AM »
While I would like to think of myself as a golf club kind of guy, I greatly enjoy myself each time I am lucky enough to play at Dedham Country and Polo Club. This is a true country club—tennis, pool, etc. However, the golf is exceptional and doesn't suffer by its proximity to the "country clubish" facilities.

TEPaul

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2006, 12:37:56 PM »
John:

As usual, you just think too damn much. I'd say if one even begins to think about the dangers to a golf club of an Easter egg hunt, one is in some fairly serious trouble.  ;)

Why don't you just sit down and relax and reflect on that a bit? I'd even suggest you think about taking part in the Easter Egg hunt. I'm quite sure it couldn't help but do you good.

redanman

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2006, 01:06:08 PM »
I've often debated posted just this thread.  I've been members of both and for golfers, a golf club has many more advantages.

(There is also a "Golf & Country Club, don't forget.)

It is about the focus of the club.  I've been to some "Golf Clubs" where the course was terrible, so golf club doesn't guarantee good golf nor "golfy people".

Golf clubs generally don't have a pool, tennis, skeet, valet parking all that shit and are generally less snobby, but there are no guarantees, just trends.  Usually when and how the food is served and how big and relaxed the bar is affected as well.

One thing?  Golf clubs usually allow you to carry your own bag as a member whenever you want.

When I moved back east my brother-in-law who has in the past been a kitchen goods supplier to CC's said to me "You're not a country-clubber".  I said "Charlie - you're right, but that's where the golf is".



Apropos KBM's comments
Quote
The difference could be in surviving or not surviving within some markets.

At "home" we've had a grandiose multi-million dollar proposal to "Upgrade our facilities"  (And sell off 62 vacant "with NO forseeable use" acres to only help pay for it!) to gain more young members which means go more luxe.  (Will adding a 1700 sq.ft exercise area (expandable to 3600 sqft) attract new members?

Up to me?  I'd downscale to a true Golf Club and lose the social fluff and sign up more golfers.  Unfortunately there is no method to get a "vote of confidence" on the current board, something that would probably recall them but at least the are downsizing the original proposal after a very polarized vote on the original megalsoian plan.

I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend  consulting the MacMahon group out of St. Louis.

TEPaul

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2006, 01:54:32 PM »
If I could find a really good Golf and Yacht Club I'd join it in a heart-beat. In my opinion, there's nothing much better than a little good light yachting after a strenuous round of golf.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2006, 02:22:37 PM »
We used to have Oneida Golf and "Riding" Club.  But, they tore down the stables, and replaced them with a big pool complex, more tennis and lovely landscaped areas around a remodelled clubhouse.

I guess those old mares just got broken down, and couldn't be ridden hard and put to bed wet anymore.

Old timers around here talk about the good old days when there was a hard core group of real golfers.  Lombardi and earlier legends were members.  Lots of great games-matches were played.  

Now, it is a big number to join and pretty much gentrified.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2006, 02:44:17 PM »
Although I've never been there, I'm told that Maidstone is the best combination of the two.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2006, 02:50:36 PM »
Tom P:  If you ever move to Minneapolis, White Bear Yacht Club is your place.

Crystal Downs does NOT have a pool (a lot of members live on Crystal Lake or Lake Michigan), and I suspect that's what keeps it more like a golf club.

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2006, 02:57:42 PM »
At "golf clubs" golf is the reason why the club exists and everything else at the club, no matter what that is, is an amenity to golf. Sometime you need amenities for your loved ones, so you can play more golf. ;)

With out their golf courses most clubs would be just over priced Howard Johnsons.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

wsmorrison

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2006, 05:26:56 PM »
Now John, if they could be overpriced Horn & Hardarts that wouldn't be such a bad thing.  Just bring a lot of nickels with you and you can have all the meat loaf, baked beans and apple pie you could ever want.  Hmmm...H&H baked beans were great!

I think The Country Club in Brookline is a wonderful country club.  The pool is too close to the course and that space-aged fabric slice stopper sail-like structure looks kind of weird.

I've only belonged to golf clubs, to the dismay of my wife who grew up at Philadelphia Country Club.  I like the only competition to the golf course is the clubhouse and the golf course usually wins.  When the gun club, swimming club, bowling, squash, tennis, skating and other activities compete for dollars it can get difficult.  You don't want to argue about resource allocation with a guy holding a shotgun.


Here's the recipe for Horn and Hardart Baked Beans:

Serves 8 to 10
·   1 pound dried navy beans, rinsed
·   1 large yellow onion, chopped (about 1 cup)
·   4 slices bacon, diced
·   2 tablespoons sugar
·   1 tablespoon dry mustard
·   1/4 teaspoon cayenne pepper
·   2/3 cup molasses
·   2 tablespoons cider vinegar
·   1 1/2 cups tomato juice
·   Salt to taste
1.   Place the beans in a large saucepot and cover with cold water. Let stand overnight at room temperature.
2.   Drain, place in an 8-quart saucepot, add fresh water to cover, and bring to a boil. Reduce the heat to low and simmer, uncovered, until the beans are almost tender, 45 minutes to 1 hour.
3.   Drain, reserving 1 cup of the cooking liquid.
4.   Preheat the oven to 250 degrees.
5.   Return the beans with the other ingredients and the 1 cup reserved cooking liquid to the pot; mix to combine. Pour into a 9x13x2-inch baking pan or a Dutch oven.
6.   Bake, uncovered, until very tender, approximately 4 hours. Check the beans occasionally while baking and add water if necessary to prevent the mixture from drying out. Season with salt and let cool 5 to 10 minutes before serving.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 05:32:27 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2006, 05:35:24 PM »
Jaka B,

It's got nothing to do with any and all of those lists.

It's the inherent "culture" of the club that determines their outlook on golf and their golf course.

However, I think one is more likely to find that special "golf culture" at golf clubs rather than at country clubs, where focus is often diffused, like light going through a prism.

All of the members drive in the front gates the same, but like light passing through a prism something happens to them at clubs without that culture, their focus is deviated and dispersed.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2006, 05:47:56 PM »
We used to have Oneida Golf and "Riding" Club.  But, they tore down the stables, and replaced them with a big pool complex, more tennis and lovely landscaped areas around a remodelled clubhouse.

I guess those old mares just got broken down, and couldn't be ridden hard and put to bed wet anymore.

Old timers around here talk about the good old days when there was a hard core group of real golfers.  Lombardi and earlier legends were members.  Lots of great games-matches were played.  

Now, it is a big number to join and pretty much gentrified.  

Myopia Hunt Club north of Boston is a golf club that grew out of the horse-related activities. My wife rides up there, but it's tough to crack the golf members list w/out three generations of Boston Brahmin on your resume... IMHO, Essex CC is a better layout than Myopia and The Country Club (you can only play the Open course about twice a year).
 
I could tolerate the members + the 'quirky' Hunt Club course if I got to join John Updike's foursome on regular basis.
Next!

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2006, 05:48:01 PM »
I wouldn't go out of my way to recommend  consulting the MacMahon group out of St. Louis.

Nor would I those are the guys that got me a brand new clubhouse under construction and already over budget.  I wish I could leave but I have too many freinds there and too few options.  If you hear the McMahon group is working with your club it won't be long before you have a capital accessment.  I went to a meeting with these guys and they explained why restoring the golf course is worthless, while improving the dinning rooms is critical.  "You already have 18 holes"' was basically their answer.  

Another funny thing they said way "the golf club is an out of date east coast concept" please don't make me live in the midwest.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2006, 06:19:58 PM »
Forget about swimming and tennis, check out Nashua (NH) Country Club. In addition to a Stiles and Van Kleek course, they've got an ice rink for curling!!!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club vs Country Club
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2006, 06:42:25 PM »
It would seem to me that Oak Hill (Rochester, NY) is a golf club with all the frou-frou stuff you expect from a country club.  I could be wrong, but I've felt that their membership is very 'golfy', and they've always been extremely welcoming.

I've been to a bunch of country clubs, with all their "stuff"; but I'll take a golf club every time.

Keep in mind that a good golf club doesn't necessarily need to be private.  The muni I grew up at had many of the characteristics of a golf club, except that it was owned by the town.  Just golf, the "Norm!" factor, and people that really loved the game.  (and it only cost me $60 per year as an 18 year old!)