[Kyle Harris]

Is the condition of the tee box really that important? After all, you get the option of teeing the ball up.

Why do we care if the tee box is immaculate or not?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Kyle,

In terms of how you came to these questions or conclusions, are you at the end of a long process of thinking about this issue, or are you at the very beginning of your thought process?

[Kyle Harris]

Kelly,

A little of both, actually. I was thinking of the nature of building a tee box - and it seems that there is a trend of having a tee box built up and putting the golfer on a platform, so to speak. I've found that I prefer when the tee box is at grade or maybe slighty above for drainage purposes.

This, of course, got me thinking as to how important drainage actually was to a tee box and why not just have a subtle slope for surface drainage (1% grade, or whatever the minimum is) and leave it at that.

To me, the sacrifice of conditioning of a tee box over the in my opinion, better playability of an at grade tee box is worth it.

This question is part of that tangent.

[Brent Hutto]

If the tee box turf is wet and I have a squishy stance, that's very poor condition. Likewise if the turf is so chewed up that I can't find a solid place to put my feet, that is also unacceptable. Finally, on a Par 3 tee box if the grass is allowed to get so long that I have to tee the ball higher just to make sure to get clean contact then that needs to be fixed.

Keep in mind that unless the teeing area is huge, that turf is going to take an incredible beating. You can't get by with less than adequate drainage, light and air and expect the grass to stay in good condition subject to all that abuse.

[Kyle Harris]

Brent,

I see your points on all fronts. I, too, would not want a squishy tee box or just bare ground with no turf at all.

How is it that a course like Garden City can have at-grade tee boxes that are apparently in good to adequate condition? To me, a tee box (with the exception of the par 3s) can be a bit neglected so long as a solid stance is able to be had. There seems to be a categorical imperative that the tee box NEEDS to be in as good of condition as the green, and I don't see how that is functional outside of aesthetic reasons.

Would a chewed up tee box lower your opinion of the course's maintenance if everything else where perfect in your opinion?

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

There's lots of sand in the soils at Garden City.  Lots of clay around these parts.  In general, these different soils require different construction methods.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Kyle,

I think the trend is away from the practice of elevating tees with a lot of fill.  Or at least in my little world that is the trend.  I agree, tees close to the existing grade are much more interesting.  It is amazing how many architects in the past seemed to mindlessly elevate tees with added fill for no dramatic improvement to the view or the tee shot.  Just walk down the side of an elevated tee and you can see that the view does not change much at all.  

Tees are built with a 1.5% to 2% slope even went built close to the ground and do not always have to have subsurface drainage depending upon the condition of the subsoil.  I think you see the extra attention given tees because of the heavy concentration of traffic in a particular spot.  As Brent pointed out you do have to maintain a certain level of conditions to about spinning out in mud as you swing.  However, if the tees are a certain width you can divide the tee in half and put the markers on one half and then the other and get quite a bit of rotation on a tee.  

Some key issues I see with tees are as you have pointed out the grade at which they are built and also the irrigation of the tee.  Often times the surrounding turf and soil is different from the soil and turf on the tee so the two adjacent areas have different maintenance needs in terms of watering.  It certainly has not helped that tees are constructed of the same sand based mix as the greens and therefore dry out more quickly than a surrounding clay based soil.  

I applaud your questioning of this type of construction.  It seems we sometimes do things based upon tradition rather than practicality and as a result make golf more expensive.

[Glenn Spencer]

Kyle,

I was thinking of a post similar to this. I was wondring about the direction the tee "aimed you." I really don't care what a tee box looks like or where it "aims" me. I do however, much prefer the tee to be flat, my stance is the most important thing to me.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

With a few exceptions though, there are examples in this area as well. In my blog, I mentioned a built up tee at Manufacturer's (the third) as being necessary because of the slope - however, Flynn or Toomey seemed careful to make sure that the manmade build up matched the grade around the tee box, not something I've seen in more modern adaptations of the concept. I have a picture of the 17th middle tee that shows it to be at grade. Even the tee boxes on the second there are only slightly built up and I would imagine that is the wettest spot on that course.

By the way, how's the tee on 18 at Rolling Green holding up? Isn't that pretty much at-grade? Now to just remove the tree  

[Jordan Wall]

On a par-3 I dont like to tee my ball up unless its 240ish or something and I have to use driver.  Then the tee box, and how well it is manicured, becomes an issue.  I think the tee boxes, at least on par-3's, should be mowed or cut down like fairway, to give the option of not teeing it up.  

It should matter where a tee box is aimed.  The only thing it does is play with you mentally, and true that can be tough, but also true is can easily be overcome.  Its just a matter of aiming there.

On the other hand, if you are going to tee the ball up, then I guess the condition wouldnt really matter.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I was thinking of a post similar to this. I was wondring about the direction the tee "aimed you." I really don't care what a tee box looks like or where it "aims" me. I do however, much prefer the tee to be flat, my stance is the most important thing to me.

Glenn,

There has been some discussion on this awhile back and it was a very good thread. I like when parallel lines exists on a hole to throw site lines off as you aim.

A link to that thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?action=display;board=1;threadid=18283;start=0#msg324620

Kelly,

Thanks for your insight. I think I may have understated the importance of high traffic on tees in my original thinking. However, is this a problem that can be overcome with larger tee grounds? Or would the large flat tee box closer to grade be even more difficult to maintain?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Kyle,

I think the surface area of tees on modern courses is much greater than on older courses, so the trend in new construction and renovation has included enlarging the surface area.  So, yes larger teeing area is generally a good thing.  Constructing them closer to grade in my opinion is the best way to build them in most every situation.  you must be midful of surrounding surface drainage, but I would much rather punch in some swales to carry surface drainage around the tee than build the tee up and have the complications that come with a popped up tee.  the only other concern you might have with an at grade tee is if it is in a hollow and lacks air circulation, but agian if that is a concern possibly the tee location is not right and it needs to be moved to a higher elevation where it can receive good air and still be built at grade.  Too many variables to make absolute statements, but I agree with the desire to build close to the ground.

[Kyle Harris]

Kelly,

Thanks again. I'd imagine there are many cases where some sort of grade modification is required. At that point, however, there seems to be a transcendent art in hiding the technical side - like I mentioned in my response to Wayne, Flynn/Toomey at Manufacturers' seemed to take the care in making sure the man-made slopes matched the natural slope of the contour when making changes such as that.

I don't kid myself that a large, flat piece of land protruding from a hillside is natural in appearance, however, there seem to be a lot of ways of making the unnaturalness more palatable to the eye.

[Bruce Katona]

Kelly: On a par 3 , where the wear and tear on the turf of the tee box is most acute, have you ever proposed using Tour Turf or any other synthetic surface to your public clients?  The advantage would be the teeing ground can be reseeded and regrow for premier events while for day to day play, the public golfer can use the synthetic surface to play from and not have to play from a muddy or bare area.

I had a chance to look at what the First Tee has at Moshulu in the Bronx.  The synthetic tees and greens are quite nice and play quite well.

[wsmorrison]

"By the way, how's the tee on 18 at Rolling Green holding up? Isn't that pretty much at-grade? Now to just remove the tree"

You mean one of the worst tees ever conceived and constructed?  The one that ruins the strategy of the hole and is at the north base of a large tree and so gets little sun?  Never heard of it.  I play the middle tee as a par 4  

Flynn did an excellent design job and Toomey and Flynn did an excellent construction job of their tees.  Raised tees have extended lines into the surrounds along with surface and sub-surface drainage and their on-grade tees have a slight slope in them for drainage.  Natural lines and looks inspired them to go the extra distance and expense to integrate tees, bunkers and greens into the surrounds.  It looks good, drains well and was meant to be easier to maintain over time so that higher initial construction costs would be offset over time by reduced maintenance costs.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Some picture examples that support what you're saying. I especially like the 4th hole at Manny's and how the slope at left of the tee box matches the slope in front. Also, while I certainly wouldn't prefer the example of the second hole there was a necessary evil given this hole lies at the bottom of the property. Still, it is a more elegant solution than I've seen elsewhere.

4th Tee, Manufacturers' G&CC:


2nd Tee, Manufacturers' G&CC

[wsmorrison]

Ron Forse and Jim Nagle have a wonderful restoration plan at Manufacturers.  Scott May and crew are implementing it slowly but surely.  When I was last there the bunkers fronting #4 green were being restored.  The trees along the left side of #2 will be coming down as well exposing the creek and tempting golfers to play down the left side in a more direct line to the green.

[redanman]

Kyle.  

Jordan Wall and Scott Canon
 ought to love those trees on #4!

Those familiar:
Should #2 remain a dog-leg or should it be an elbow?

[Kyle Harris]

Bill,

Elbow. The green set up dictates this moreso than anything, with the creek sneaking around the right side of the green and more room left than there appears. It'd be nice to see the golfer given the option of challenging the creek off the tee to get the better angle into the green than to be forced to play from the less than ideal angle.

[redanman]

I think so too, but I don't want the new
tree-huggers being hard on me.  
Yet another aggregious example of a green
complex able to dictate strategy.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kelly,

A little of both, actually. I was thinking of the nature of building a tee box - and it seems that there is a trend of having a tee box built up and putting the golfer on a platform, so to speak. I've found that I prefer when the tee box is at grade or maybe slighty above for drainage purposes.

This, of course, got me thinking as to how important drainage actually was to a tee box and why not just have a subtle slope for surface drainage (1% grade, or whatever the minimum is) and leave it at that.

To me, the sacrifice of conditioning of a tee box over the in my opinion, better playability of an at grade tee box is worth it.

This question is part of that tangent.

Kyle-

  Wht do you suppose was in the impetus of those in control of Golf Maintenance at PSU when they built that new tee on #13 White?  
It goes against the architectural strategy for the hole--a blind drive on a wonderful par 5.  

For those of you whom haven't seen the hole, it is a blind driving hole over a small rise with a wide fairway to allow for different angles on the tee shot, although a little left of center is preferred.    
There is a tower far in the distance that creates an aiming point for the tee shot.  
Having the raised tee makes a crossbunker visible that would normally be blind in normal course of play--although, the player is afforded a view of the 13th hole while playing #10, and can see the hole location, crossbunker, and the rest of the hole, thereby gaining insight into what he will face in several holes from where he is currently playing.  

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

That's the tee that prompted this thought process in general. While never explicitly stated by anybody, it seemed that the height of the box was made that way to eliminate the blindness on the hole since it is much more than would be required for drainage.

If that's NOT the reason... I'd be even more worried, because the thing is just U-G-L-Y.

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