[Brent Hutto]

Not trying to be argumentative with you Brent, but I think you can see my point. How much can you really lean on these things?

Hey, I'm with you on this one. Telling me the degree of slope is dandy but I'm not particularly interested in the machine's advice about how the shot will play.

[EDIT] In fact, my primary concern would be that my shot probably plays more like your grandmother's 3-wood than your 8-iron!

[JESII]

Wayne, the rule apparently does cover the slippery slope you talk about. Devices that offer (or attempt to offer) those added ingredients are not allowed even on the course during any round. But as you imply, the door is now open and who's to close it.

A very interesting decision in my opinion.


Brent,

I thin my 8 iron all the time, so both our shots will come in head high and screaming.  

[Mark Studer]

Wayne and Sully- The Pennsylvania GA is NOT allowing these devices, just for the reasons you mention.  Our committee had 2  email discussions where each member of the committtee voiced their opinion and we basically agreed to take it slowly.....do the same thing as the USGA in '06.  We can adjust if need be.  If it seems to be the best thing for administering the state cahmpionships later, we can adjust. It is tough enough to get the rulings correct on the spot without these devices around .   The committee realizes though, that these devices when mounted on golf carts of the host club  , for a father/son, or senior 4 ball are possibly just easier to allow, than to make sure they are turned off.   We still have the option at a certain venue to allow these things this year if it makes sense. We are able to just add it as a local rule for a specific event, like a ball drop, on a par 3.  My guess is that these devices will be like softspikes.......few accepted them at first , but most everyone does now.....I hope not, but that is my guess.-Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Thank you for the clarification.  I am glad the PGA is taking a longer time to consider the use of these instruments.  I don't think they are at all good for the game and represent a disconnect from the spirit the game has long been played under.  First of all, the fact that the cost of a good laser distance finder is rather high, it therefore gives those with a greater disposable income an advantage to those that cannot afford the devices.  I hope the manufacturers aren't contributing money or product to associations in an attempt to influence their use.  I just think there should be a definitive thumbs down to the concept.  I think I would not use one in a tournament if allowed.  I am just not comfortable with their use in competitions.

[JohnV]

John,
I recently interviewed Ed Gowan of the Arizona Golf Association and he told me they are most definitely NOT allowing distance measuring devices in any of their competitions. Was there something you saw that said otherwise?

You are right.  I should never use my memory.  I've checked 12 associations and 9 are allowing them.  Arizona is one that isn't.  My appologies to Ed and the folks down there.   The PGA section there is also not allowing them.

[JohnV]

Wayne, the rule apparently does cover the slippery slope you talk about. Devices that offer (or attempt to offer) those added ingredients are not allowed even on the course during any round. But as you imply, the door is now open and who's to close it.

The door was opened when sprinkler heads were marked, 150 bushes put in, yardage books allowed and caddies given the right to tell me what the yardage was.  By limiting the devices to just ones that tell you the distance and not all the others areas that Wayne mentioned, the rule basically keeps things on that same level.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that rules were also changed to allow a player to tell another player what the yardage is from either ball.  In the past this was considered advice as you could only tell someone the distance from a fixed object.  Therefore, if one player has a laser and the other doesn't, they can exchange this information with no penalty.

[TEPaul]

"Wayne, the rule apparently does cover the slippery slope you talk about. Devices that offer (or attempt to offer) those added ingredients are not allowed even on the course during any round. But as you imply, the door is now open and who's to close it."

Sully:

Actually, the door isn't open--it's closed by the very wording the USGA/R&A is using on this Local Rule. The door won't open unless and until they decide to reword it and I can't imagine why they'd do that any time soon.

Actually, I just talked to Wayne on this a moment ago. I mentioned why I think the USGA/R&A has instituted this Local DMD Rule at this point and he told me I should put that on here,

In my opinion, the reason they did it is because there was no question at all that these DMDs are out there all over the place and they've been used for quite some time now in recreational golf. The USGA/R&A is realistic enough to realize they will not be able to make golfers give them up and courses have been using them on their carts etc (Pebble was using them before the rule change) for a long time now.

To them I doubt this is about competitive golf. I think it's all about handicapping. To post a legitimate score for handicap purposes you're supposed to play by the USGA/Rules of Golf. Previously using a DMD wasn't playing by the Rules of Golf.

I know some will respond to this by saying that most golfers don't play by the Rules of Golf anyway and they post scores for handicap purposes. That's a bit different, though, than the USGA/R&A disallowing scores posted for handicap purposes with these DMDs when they know full well that these DMDs are all over the place in golf and have been for years, and they know they can't stop them.

Now, they don't have this handicap problem any longer. All a course or club needs to do now is adopt this Local Rule if they use these DMDs on their carts or whatever like a Pebble Beach and the scores posted for handicap purposes with them are legit.

Don't even bother, as I already know who on here will bash the USGA for this. Big deal, those people are going to bash the USGA for everything anyway.    

Just remember if the USGA and R&A didn't exist you guys will REALLY be sorry. And I'm also going to tell you here and now I told you so!  

[TEPaul]

Mark Studer:

In your post about our PA Golf Association email discussions on this DMD Local Rule issue you neglected to mention that at the end of that long email discussion I called for the reestablishment of the stymie in ALL the PA Golf Association championships in '06 and I don't mind telling you I'm a bit more than a little pissed off that my recommendation and resolution did not carry and get approved, and that some of you did not even take me seriously and perhaps even laughed at me behind my back! I want you do know that I'm actually a very progressive man and I've even adopted Merion's new slogan as my personal golf administration motto---"BACK TO THE FUTURE!"

(Or was it "Full steam ahead to the past"?. No, I think it was "Back to the future.").

[Tony_Muldoon]

What is to prevent the slippery slope from being taken that allows someone to develop software that records wind velocity, direction, elevation change, humidity, actual yardage, etc that gives the golfer the most realistic "plays like" yardage on a small handheld computer during play?  

I believe that within a few years similar machines will factor all these things in and be able to calculate the line for a putt. Then all a competitor needs to practice is the difference between a 1mph putt or a 3 mph putt and hit in the direction suggested by the machine.  That’s where this particular piece of technology is heading.

[TEPaul]

Tony:

That may be true but how in the world do you suppose the USGA and R&A can prevent that from happening? Their Rules of Golf depend merely on voluntary compliance. The Rules of Golf are not a legal system that has penalties attached to it other than in competitve golf sanctioned in USGA/R&A tournaments. Recreationally there's nothing they can do to prevent people from using devices like that except to attempt to disallow the posting of scores for handicap purposes if those devices are used.

[Steve Curry]

What's next laser guided smart balls?  

[wsmorrison]

"'Wayne, the rule apparently does cover the slippery slope you talk about. Devices that offer (or attempt to offer) those added ingredients are not allowed even on the course during any round. But as you imply, the door is now open and who's to close it.'

Sully:

Actually, the door isn't open--it's closed by the very wording the USGA/R&A is using on this Local Rule. The door won't open unless and until they decide to reword it and I can't imagine why they'd do that any time soon."

Tom,

I'm worried that the door has been found and that some technology will be used to pry it open despite the words the USGA and the R&A have in place.  They are paper barriers that can easily be breached.  In my mind, and I am not at all a deep thinker on this or know the rules world nearly as well as I should, but here's my take anyway, I'd rather face the challenge of handicaps being compromised by the fairly widespread use of the distance detectors than compromise the spirit of the game through rules that allow their use in competition.  Why not allow their use in practice rounds (they're not used for handicap purposes, are they?) and bar them from competitions?  It is the spirit of the game I care more about.  If a guy knows he's cheating by posting handicaps that are invalid because of the use of a distance device, fuck him.  He's cheating and if there is a victory, it is a hollow one and I am willing to risk personal losses for the greater good of the game.

[John Yerger]

Tom
If you recall, I sent you an e-mail supporting the re-instatement of the "stymie". Can't you feel the love out there. One of the major concerns I have about these devices pertains to match play. Does anyone seriously believe that one competitor who has a DMD will share it in a crucial moment in a match with his opponent who doesn't? Another issue are the devices that measure slope and height that are illegal but where recently shown on The Golf Channel. They  will only promote these products and officials will have to monitor these devices before play. This rule, as has been pointed out, was established to make scores turned in at clubs that used these devices credible for handicap purposes. Championship golf had nothing to do with this decision. I believe the concerns that Wayne mentioned regarding the unrestrained use of technological devices are going to continue to diminish the game. Isn't an important element of golf course architecture the concept of "deception" as Tillinghast called it. Isn't uncertainty an aspect of the game that makes it harder? That is being eroded by this devices in my opinion.  

[JESII]

Sully:

Actually, the door isn't open--it's closed by the very wording the USGA/R&A is using on this Local Rule. The door won't open unless and until they decide to reword it and I can't imagine why they'd do that any time soon.

Actually, I just talked to Wayne on this a moment ago. I mentioned why I think the USGA/R&A has instituted this Local DMD Rule at this point and he told me I should put that on here,

In my opinion, the reason they did it is because there was no question at all that these DMDs are out there all over the place and they've been used for quite some time now in recreational golf. The USGA/R&A is realistic enough to realize they will not be able to make golfers give them up and courses have been using them on their carts etc (Pebble was using them before the rule change) for a long time now.

To them I doubt this is about competitive golf. I think it's all about handicapping. To post a legitimate score for handicap purposes you're supposed to play by the USGA/Rules of Golf. Previously using a DMD wasn't playing by the Rules of Golf.

Tom,

I think the door is open. Maybe John Van Der Borght is right that it opened when they began putting yardages on sprinkler heads and such, but the door towards eliminating any uncertainties seems to be open. Maybe that shouldn't be part of the game, I don't know, I kind of like uncertainty. What are we going to do with all of those blind holes out there now?      

I am going to disagree with your opinion that this local rule provision was adopted to facilitate handicapping purposes only because that would have been very easy to say within the writing and if it does not clearly say that, my belief is they did not intend that. And if that was their intention (to simplify recreational round handicapping) why wouldn't that message have been conveyed to the Golf Association of Philadelphia? I am certain Mark, or someone involved with GAP, spoke to someone at the USGA prior to making its decision to allow these DMD's in their competitions and if they had been told the real intention was to simplify the recreational round handicapping process and not neccessarily to be used during competitive rounds the GAP would have made a different decision.

As for me, and thinking about the competitive use of these things, I could really care less because I learned while playing the mini-tours (and using these things in every practice round) that they are at least as much of a distraction as they are helpful. They're great when practicing (to learn how far you hit the ball) and even during a practice round (to confirm the accuracy of sprinkler head yardages), but competitive golf is more similar to other sports in that your reaction to situations is more important to success than dictating a situation.

[AndrewB]

I played in a tournament the weekend before last (living where you can play year-round is great) and one of my playing partners had a DMD (this event adopted the NCGA's rules, which are going to allow these devices).  Using this device seemed to speed up his play a bit since it took him less time to get the distance than it did for me pacing off yardages and consulting my pin sheet.  But, when I say "a bit", I mean it: he probably saved at most 30 seconds in extreme cases where I couldn't find a sprinkler head.  Most of the time I find one as I walk up to the ball and simply need to do some simple subtraction and consult my pin sheet.  He also shared the device and yardage it gave him on par 3s, which I just assumed was okay under the rules.  (I still found my own yardage because I didn't know whether to trust the DMD or him.)  I'm sure he was one of few people in the tournament to have DMDs, so it didn't affect the pace of play at all and we waited quite a lot (the round took well over 5 hours, ugh).

Despite DMDs seemingly speeding up play as more players use them, I am uncomfortable with this local rule.  It feels like everything in the game aside from actually hitting the shot is dwindling away.  Heck, with the technology advancements over the past several years, many would even say that having to hit the shot yourself is going away.  It just seems like advancement in the wrong direction.

And, for that matter, I wonder where we're headed if the USGA makes its decisions based on what people are doing in recreational play.  Their role is to protect the game, not let it become what the masses are turning it into.  Tournaments have become the only place where golf is played under the rules, and I think the USGA would do better in realizing that than letting aspects of recreational golf leak into competitive golf.  Who knows what's next, and this sets a bad precedent.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My state has also permitted the use of the devices, in our designated events, without as yet making the plunge to allowing them in our state am.
It is though they are saying it is okay for the usual weekend events but perhaps not for the "major" of the State Am.

I agree with Jamie, I do not see any significant difference it playing times as a result of using the devices, just more confusion perhaps...the sharing of devices, I would think comes under the same ruling as sharing information...and will not be allowed..that would be my take on the situation.

I like the devices for practice rounds and mapping out courses, but in actual events, I think it is just another way of tainting the purity of the game...just as I felt when metal drivers became the rage...but once the plunge is made, you have to go along in order to compete....whata shame, I really do believe the game was better in 1976 than it is in 2006, from a PURITY stand point.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just reread some of the threads, and the problem with the wind and obtaining an accurate yardage, is totally eradicated withthe gps devices...because you dont even have to keep your hand still.
Jamie, rather than but the new bushnell, I would go with the sky caddie...tremendous accuracy from my experience.
I have not got my own ...yet...but I am sure I will as the season moves closer.

[ForkaB]

Andrew

If there were available a hand-held GPS device at Dornoch which (without pointing) was accurate to +/- 10cm from your ball to the front and back of all architectural features and to the pin of the day, would you use it in the Shield?

Serious and realistic question.....

Hope all is going well in the Bay Area.

All the best

Rich

[AndrewB]

If there were available a hand-held GPS device at Dornoch which (without pointing) was accurate to +/- 10cm from your ball to the front and back of all architectural features and to the pin of the day, would you use it in the Shield?

Serious and realistic question.....

Rich,

Good to hear from you.  I thought I might get called on this.

For the forseeable future, I would not since I don't plan to use any such devices in competition.  I don't think such a device would add any substantial advantage for me in the Shield.  Yardage is often meaningless when playing there (which is part of the fun), and it's much more important to pick the right kind of shot and judge the conditions (wind, firmness of the gound, etc).  Also, I know the course pretty well by now (from a factual, what features are where point of view), and that knowledge exceeds my ability to hit the shots I'm trying to hit, so the limiting factor is certainly not knowing how far I am to the nearest tenth centimeter.

Just to be clear, I don't think these devices give players that use them a significant or unfair advantage; I just think it's a trend in the wrong direction.  Pretty soon courses will remove existing yardage markers and require you to rent a GPS device in order to play, all the while claiming it's to improve pace of play.  That's what they do with carts now.

Throughout college my team did use a Bushnell to help map out courses during practice rounds.  We found this made more efficient use of our practice rounds in learning courses we were seeing for the first time.

I was thinking about this, though, and my stance on this issue is highly influenced by the fact that yardage markers and yardage books were already the norm when I learned to play.  If I had grown up playing before these things, I might view them the same way (not to mention have better distance judging skills).

It sounds like you have a different opinion on this matter and as always I'd be quite interested to hear your thoughts.

As an aside, what did you think of having pin sheets during the qualifying rounds of the Shield for the first time this year?


Cheers,
Andrew

(Checking GCA from work, is this the beginning of the end?)

[Dennis_Harwood]

One question: Can players share devices or are they considered part of a players equipment?

 

At least part of that question has been answered by the USGA/R&A by their revision of Decision 8-1/2-- That decsion has been revised to permt sharing of information from any object to the hole, including the distance of any ball to the hole-- (previously the decison prohibited any informaton concerning non-permenant objects, such as balls. to the hole)--

That rewrite is expressly intended to permit yardage informaton from distance devices, if permitted by local rule, to be shared among fellow-competitors , opponents, etc.

[ForkaB]

Andrew

If such a device were available (they are) and allowable (not yet) I'd probably carry one, but only as a confirmation of my gut feel as to how far it was to wherever I hoped to hit the ball.  It would be a comfort blanket rather than a tool, but comfort is important in golf (the less doubt cluttering up your mind the better).  Of course like you (but very much more so) where I hope my ball goes and where it actually goes are rarely the same place....

Disclaimer--the company that publishes my books is also involved in GPS devices.

As for the pin position sheets, the Match and Handicap secretary wouldn't give me one out of spite....

[Rob_Waldron]

I just have to re-surface this discussion. I recently heard that the Virginia State GA, Maryland State GA, and the Middle Atlantic GA will NOT permit the use of range finding devices in their events. The Washington Metropolitan GA has not yet met to decide. Considering all of the area Associations are not permitting them, my guess is that we will not permit them as well in order to be consistent.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is my latest count:

Will Allow Range Finders:

Golf Assn. of Phila.
NoCAL GA
Wash. State
Pacific NW GA
Western PA GA

Will not allow Range Finders:

PA State GA
AZ State GA
MD State GA
VA State GA
Middle Atlantic GA
Oregon State GA

 

[Scott Coan]

Add Massachusetts to those Associations NOT allowing...

For Immediate Release: December 27, 2005

Headline: MGA Will Not Adopt Local Rule Allowing the Use of Distance-Measuring Devices

Norton, MA – The Massachusetts Golf Association (MGA) today announced that it will not adopt the new Local Rule allowing the use of distance-measuring devices at its championships or qualifying rounds in 2006. This announcement comes on the heels of a similar decision made by the national-governing organization, the United States Golf Association (USGA).

"The MGA championship committee has decided that it will not adopt the local rule to allow distance measuring devices for our championships in 2006," said Owen O'Malley, MGA Director of Rules & Competition. "We are eager to see the results of their use, however, and will review this decision on an annual basis."

While the MGA will not adopt this Local Rule in its championships, individual member clubs and tournament committees are able to choose to adopt this rule.

This Local Rule allowing the use of distance-measuring devices will be available for use by Committees beginning January 1, 2006. Decision 14-3/0.5 Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device allows a Committee to establish a Local Rule permitting players to use devices that measure distance only.

[fred ruttenberg]

I am a member of the GAP committee that approved the use of measuring devices. Our Association runs over 40 tournaments a year. Many events are not limited to low handicaps.

Now that local rules permit their use, more and more players will own and use these devices. My Florida club uses laser-link (a device in the flagstick) and play is faster using measuring devices. Portable devices are now available that can be inserted on flagsticks. GAP plans to use these at clubs holding tournaments that do not already have these flagsticks.

If you look at Bushnell's website you will see that they currently are selling devices that compensate for elevation (which is illegal) and devices that do not. GAP will point out at the tournaments that elevation devices are not legal.. We believe that following this rule will be like all other rules and will leave it to the integrity of the player (as monitored by fellow competitors) to enforce.

It is certainly possible that use of these devices will delay the play of some players. However, these are probably the same players who pace off every shot now, check the wind three times, etc. As Tom Paul said previously, the pace of play rules will then have to be used.

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