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Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sun gets in your eyes
« on: February 12, 2007, 09:46:27 PM »
In his review of We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, Ron Whitten said he had a mild distaste for the 16th hole, a short uphill par 4, because it plays into the prevailing winter sunlight on a desert resort course.  He said:

"I played it fine, fairway wood off the tee, 9-iron into the green, but the hole faces to the southwest, into the low, winter midday-to-late-afternoon sun. Since Saguaro is basically a winter playground, this is a hole on which many golfers will always be squinting. Minor point, perhaps, but one that stuck in my mind as the only flaw in the routing."

My first thought on reading was, “he has a point.”  

On second thought, what if Coore and Crenshaw did it on purpose?

Knowing that many golfers will play the 16th hole later in the winter-early spring desert day, and wanting to protect par on a short hole, why not take advantage of the sun to add a little uncertainty to the golfer’s decision-making?   Like water, sand, wind, topography, and gravity, it’s a natural element that could by choice be used to defend a hole.

Clearly you wouldn’t want to do this too often, because it would be annoying.  But is there a rule of thumb altogether against this ploy, like “the first hole of the course should not face east?”  

Rather than designing this element into the hole on purpose, is it more likely that the architects found a good green site, and, after realizing the hole would play up-sun in the winter afternoon, decided “C’est la vie?”  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sun gets in your eyes
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 10:14:42 PM »
Eric:

I don't think anyone has ever deliberately routed a hole into the sun, although I could be mistaken.  I remember asking Mr. Dye why the 18th at the TPC at Sawgrass played into the setting sun and he replied that it was just like Pebble Beach ... looked better on TV that way ... but I think that logic was based in hindsight.

I do know that Bill Coore rejected one of the routings for Sand Hills because the early holes would have played right into the rising sun, so I know he thinks about that stuff.  My guess is they just decided that the qualities of that hole outweighed the sun factor.  After all it is only the last 8-10 groups of the day for perhaps 3 months of the year for whom it is a significant factor ... that's perhaps 10% of the total rounds played in the year.

We do think about this stuff when we're designing, but when I see critics point out these "flaws" I think it's pretty weak ... as if they are trying to prove their own qualifications as designers by being masters of the obvious.  It fails to address the real question the architect faced -- which is whether the quality of the hole is worth the sun trouble, or whether there is another solution that would have been better overall.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sun gets in your eyes
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2007, 10:17:34 PM »
Besides, the further north you go, the more the sun's apparent position on the horizon changes from month to month.  

What plays into the sun in December most certainly will not in June.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sun gets in your eyes
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2007, 10:24:31 PM »
I only play in the rain.

1.  No sun
2.  Empty course

Win-win all the way 'round.  

My favorite "into the sun" hole is #10 at Rolling Green GC.  Teed off on the backside to avoid a ladies function first thing in the morning.  Nothing like a 245 yard 3 wood into the morning sun in 50* weather.  Best bogey I made all day....just hoping to make a little contact.  

wsmorrison

Re:Sun gets in your eyes
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 11:37:42 AM »
Clint,

Next time you play Rolling Green, you may be teeing off with driver on the 10th.  The club, to their credit, constructed a tee according to Flynn's original plan (and never built).  It now will play 260 from the middle of the back tee.

Other new tees include:

4th:  While it offers a nice tee shot, it is horrid to look at as it is cantilevered into the hillside with large beige boulders holding it in place  :P  Come in the parking lot entrance not the front entrance to avoid looking at it from its worse angle.

8th:  An excellent addition of length sitting nicely on the ground.  There are too many tees now, the back of the second and the front of the third should be united.

11th:  The added length is welcome but the result is unfortunate.  The tee is built up abruptly to the right of the cart path.  The right to left slope in front of the member tees has been dished out in an awkward way that looks forced and manufactured.  Maybe they will address this in time.  I was hoping the member tee would be taken down to grade and the new back tee not so high.  Visibility was obviously the mandate here but it was not designed properly.  An architect would have been a wise utilization on this hole in particular.

14th:  Wow, this is going to be a tough hole.  I thought it was going to be a championship tee, but apparently it will be the regular back tee.  It is up the slope above the cartpath adding about 20 yards.  That is one great par 3.  In fact, I think Rolling Green has an outstanding collection of 5 par 3s, at the top of almost anybodies list.

The 1st tee should be returned to ground level and, in my opinion, the back tees on 4 and 18 should be eradicated.  The tee and ground in front of the tee on 11 should be reworked.

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sun gets in your eyes
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 12:12:25 PM »
It would be really masochistic for anyone to deliberately design a hole like that.

Over here the words "winter" and "sun" are pretty much mutually exclusive, however on the very rare occasion it happens it makes playing a nightmare.