Overhousing

[Jordan Wall]

My home course, Harbour Pointe, is awesome.  It was #1 public by golf digest in 93', but back then it probably wasnt housed as much.  There are now houses or condos on every hole but one.  It's quite annoying.  Houses here, houses there, and pretty soon I cant hit a certain shot because if I miss hit it its gonna hit a house...ugh

Are there other good or great courses being ruined by housing??

Is it possible to use housing as a strategic feature, maybe to mess with the players head??

Are houses along a course considered strategic features anyway??

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In the Philadelphia/South Jersey area, the prime example is Laurel Creek near Moorestown, NJ. When this Palmer Design course first opened in the early 90s without housing, it was touted as one of Palmer's best and was highly ranked in NJ by GD. Now Toll Brothers has taken over and the course is ruined by the housing. The first hole, a cape over water, has a backdrop of single family housing lining the rear of the fairway. There are other holes with housing on both sides of the fairway. Still a good course, but UGH.

[Ryan Crago]

jordan,

you're not the only one who has noticed this... however, it seems to be a development reality, and should be embraced in terms of design, rather than an afterthought....

one case in western canada is Crown Isle in Courtenay, BC... and perhaps Yannick Pilon would comment on this as well..
a good golf course when i first played it in 1998 - which quickly became one of my favourites - great fun... housing (which i'm guessing was masterplanned from the get-go?) has been popping up ever since, and continues to do so as the surrounding community grows.

community growth is great, i dont dispute that, especially in terms of creating a sustainable operation, but i feel that the golf experience has been changed significantly ESPECIALLY on the back nine in the 18 months or so....  

that being said, still lots of fun, but much more clausterphobic - and the golf journey IMO has been compromised somewhat....

rc.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

That's funny---as soon as I read Jordon's post the first thing I thought about was Laurel Creek and then I saw you already mentioned it. It was so nice looking--such neat feeling in the old days when there was nothing but the course out there. Is Laurel Creek in Moorestown? I didn't know that. I played there a lot and I never knew where I was. Not unusual for me.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

Now that I think about it, Laurel Creek is in Mt. Laurel. Moorestown has more cache.

Steve

[Jordan Wall]

http://www.laurelcreekcc.org/en_us/CourseTour.html?16200635204

can houses be used for strategy by any chance??

[Ryan Crago]

jordan,

i suppose they could.. though, the purists among us may not want to admit that.  and i dont know if i'd be telling many people about it if they were!  could be a dangerous precedent.

that being said, housing has a valid psychological impact on a player.... a friend of mine, with granted not a strong mental game, without fail gets freaked on a tee where there is a "any damage is the golfer's responsibility" sign.  its pretty funny actually.

 

[Andrew Summerell]

Jordan,

This has happened to a lot of courses here in Australia.

There are 2 problems with this issue.
1) A majority of new courses these days raise their money through housing estates. The cost of land in many major cities encourages the developers to squeeze more housing blocks out of the land to raise more money. On top of this, housing blocks bordering the golf course, therefore having a view across the golf course, sell for more than a block with no view of the course, so developers want as many blocks bordering the course as possible.

2) Older established courses have been effected in this regard due to technology. Houses on the border of older courses that have never been a problem have become a problem because of the distance the average golfer hits the ball these days & the prevalence of litigation. Many of the sandbelt courses in Melbourne have had to face boundary issues.

In an ideal world courses would have green zones around the course allowing no encroachment of houses & a more enjoyable atmosphere to play golf. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Strategy? Only for direction at Laurel Creek- try for the 5th house on the left, for example. Those pics really show the housing there.

[Jordan Wall]

Obviously your not gonna put a house where it is purposely in play...no one would buy it...but you could put a house that really messes with the mental slate of mind...As Ryan said with his friend...but it even messes with my head, you know, do I cut a corner at the risk of couple hundred bucks, or about 20 lawns

[Jim Thompson]

In my opinion the need for over housing is a result of a failed business model.  It continually amazes me the numbers of people who buy home sites on courses that have no intention of being profitable where the developer has every intention of dumping on them after the build out.  After you get 100 home owners with x number of dollars invested in their homes do they really have any choice other than to subsidize the course in their back yard?  Don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame anyone for wanting to make a buck, but the excessive gouging that is prevalent in golf is shameful.  Builders and architects throughout the nineties received ridiculous premiums to build courses that have since been sold multiple times to get the cost and debt down to serviceable levels for the new owner’s after the auctions.

I think in the new era of construction, design, and master planning the big question is one of whether a developer wants to dare try this exposed model again in an increasingly more aware market.  Further he has to consider the alternative of planning home sites at a great course rather than around a compromised routing and what is the increased value per home site of that approach.  Are X average home sites on a great course worth more than Y home sites on a compromised one?  That’s the question.

Cheers!

JT

[JBergan]

Tom

Now that I think about it, Laurel Creek is in Mt. Laurel. Moorestown has more cache.

Steve

There are a few very claustrophobic holes on Laurel Creek.  Unfortunately, I never played it pre-houses.

I think part is in Moorestown and part in Mt Laurel.  Since Moorestown is a dry town, the clubhouse is in Mt Laurel.

Riverton CC is the same.  Riverton is dry so they built the clubhouse in Cinnaminson.

[Michael Kennedy]

At face value houses could be placed on a great course, away from the line of play, without changing the fundamental properties of the course.  As a rather stark example, imagine condos/houses on the perimeter of the Sand Hills (!?!?)  Truly, the course itself would not have changed.  Routing, shot values, etc. would be identical.

Yet, to probably everyone on this board, golf is more than just 190y from a sidehill lie to a draw pin.  The spiritual feeling one gets when playing a truly great course in all of its natural surrounds changes immeasurably when native grasses and natural terrain are interrupted by aluminum siding and asphalt shingles - especially when said eyesores are on both sides of the fairway.  I would argue that it is precisely the natural setting that makes the experience of playing a well-designed course "world class." IMHO, Ben's Porch is the absolutely perfect halfway house for the Sand Hills.  Small and modest.

Can you name a course you *really* enjoy playing which is lined with houses?  This is especially difficult for a links.  And even for wooded courses, only Pinehurst #2 leaps to mind (where the houses are really only on a first few holes and are pretty hidden from the tee).

There is a "strategic" house at the Wilds (Weiskopf/Morrish) in suburban Minneapolis.  Pre-housing, one could play an aggressive line from the first tee, cutting significant yardage off of this dogleg right par 4.  I came back two years later and houses were built along the inside of the dogleg right up to the first tee.  The house closest to the tee - just wee push off the tee, had a broken side window and numerous pock marks from being repeatedly hammered by wayward drives.  Clearly, many had gambled and lost (or did not warm up).  It must be quite a sound to be inside your aluminum-clad house when a drive from 20y away hits home.

OT - have you ever noticed how several of the great links courses have a trailer park or similar housing complex in plain view from the course (County Down, Portrush, Dornoch,...) ?  

[Mark Leo]

Michael,
Regarding your last comment, Ballybunion's 1st hole ! UGLY

[Voytek Wilczak]

Pebble.

Some of these houses, their $20 mil pricetags notwithstanding, are pretty ugly.

[Jordan Wall]

Pebble.

Some of these houses, their $20 mil pricetags notwithstanding, are pretty ugly.

New one on the 18th is going for 29.5...wow

[Andy Troeger]

I make it a point to try to find out if a course is in a housing development before playing (especially if on a trip somewhere). I haven't found a course yet with a good deal of housing that I really liked, or where the housing didn't detract from the experience.

I am not including courses that just have a few homes around the periphery of the grounds. A few here and there usually aren't too much of a detraction.