Open for a week???

[Jordan Wall]

There are some great clubs out there, such as Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Sand Hills, Seminole, etc, you get the point.  Many people I talk to do not get any oppurtunity to play any of these very high-end, private courses.  Instead they hear about how great they are, which is fine, but after hearing so much about a course, it just makes you itch to play it.  Some people will wait their entire lives for the oppurtunity to play a course just once.  But what if these private courses opened to the public like, say, one week or two weeks a year??  It would not really be bad for the courses, and many people would have the oppurtunity to play these great courses that would not otherwise.  Would it be a good idea for clubs, for the members, and for the public, to open their course up for a period of time during the year so people could really enjoy how good they really are??  I dont mind having private courses, but I think that everybody should have at least the oppurtunity to play some of the best courses in the world.  I also do not think some of these great courses should open play for just members and a few guests, but instead let the courses shine to the whole world.  What do you guys think??

[rjsimper]

If I was paying good money to be a member at a private club, let alone one of the prestigious ultra-privates, there is no way in hell I would approve of such a plan.

The only time I think it's a good idea is to use the pull/prestige to help out a charitable cause a la Pine Valley this past year.

Many of these courses depend on legend and lore just as much as they depend on the actual golf course.

[Craig_Rokke]

As a public course golfer, I wholeheartedly endorse such an idea

If I was a member of one of those clubs--no way!

[Andy Troeger]

I'm with Craig in endorsing the idea!  

However...there are many reasons why members would hate this.  In addition to the obvious money and prestige issues, people who come to a course to play once (just to say they played it) in many cases are the ones that are LEAST likely to take care of the course. Sure those of us on this site who care about GCA I would think could be trusted to replace divots, fix ball marks, etc, however do you really think that the majority of people who would take advantage of such an offer would care? Heck you might even get some people who would want to tear the places up to spite those who get the opportunity to play it all the time!  

[Mike Erdmann]

It's a horrible idea, no different from forcing home owners to open their homes for the public to browse through.  Nobody would ever suggest that a home owner should have to open their home to the public, why would you do the same for a golf course?  Private clubs are just that, clubs owned by the members.  Allowing public play for a few days or even a week puts additional stress on the golf course by players who aren't going to care for it in the same way that the members do.  Why should the club's owners (i.e. members) have to give up use of their course for some period of time and then incur the costs of the wear-and-tear that comes with that kind of outside play?

More power to those clubs that open their course up for charitable events, state golf association tournaments, etc., but to think that these clubs have some kind of benevolent obligation to allow outside play is silly.

[Tim Gavrich]

I agree with the dissenters of the opening post.  However, I might be in favor of a similar program.  I really like the policy of Jack Nicklaus Signature courses, in that if you belong to one--private or semi-private--your head pro can call the head pro at any other Nicklaus Signature club and arrange for you to play, with the assurance that the gesture would be readily reciprocated in the future.  Then, the member(s) of Nicklaus A just pay regular guest fee at Nicklaus B and can play.  Mind you, member A of Nicklaus A can't do this every week, but it assures Nicklaus B that course Nicklaus B will be treated with as much--if not more--respect than Nicklaus A on a daily basis.  It's good PR.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Not sure about open for a week, but some level of access can be made available without unduly disturbing the members. For example, with a little bit of arranging I can get a game at the top ranked private clubs in Australia (including Royal Melbourne, NSW, Kingston Heath. the rest of the Sandbelt etc).

The clubs manage this access by:

-- restricting tee times (slots available a couple of days a week for an hour or so),

-- having residence requirements (generally, must be an interstate or overseas visitor to stop locals abusing the system),

-- requiring you to be a member in good standing at some other club with a letter of introduction from that club, and

-- charging a bundle (by Australian standards at least -- US$150 and up)

In fact I am playing at Kingston Heath in a few weeks -- they have a half hour slot at lunchtime on Mondays for interstate and overseas visitors. I can play the whole Sandbelt this way. Most of the great courses in Britain also provide some sort of access.

While I agree that private clubs in the US have and should have no obligation to open their doors to non-members, it is a shame there isn't more access of the type described above

[Cliff Hamm]

Would love to see it but obviously unrealistic.  American's treasure their private clubs and that is not going to change.  It does, however, enhance the elitist image of golf versus the British Isles.  Those belonging to private clubs, however, are paying a great amount for that privilige and obviously have no obligation to open the gates.  Just wish some limited outside play was allowed, especially when the course has little play (after 2, during the week in the fall/spring).  The biggest problem is how do you seperate the true golfer who appreciates what he is playing and savors every moment from those who just want to play the prestige course?  Obviously you can't and I don't blame the private club members from not wanting the course over run by the gold chain crowd.  Then again maybe it's a Trump gold chain course

[Jim_Bick]

This has been discussed here a million times but US tax and public accommodation laws make it risky for clubs which desire to be considered private to allow even limited public play.

If that weren't the case, I would be willing to bet even the most exclusive US club's membership would be happy to arrange their affairs a la Muirfield et al to pick up the revenue.

[tonyt]

If I paid a six figure sum to join an elite private club in the US, I wouldn't like somebody to be able to drop $300-400 unnannounced and unknown to any member and waltz around.

You are either a valued friend/client or the like of a member, or you join your own club.


Jordan,

What I'd endorse is perhaps a once a year walking tour of part of the course with a club historian as a guide. Perhaps if one quiet weekday per year was set aside to give people this chance to be given a look around with historical notes, the chance to take some good photos and perhaps to be able to purchase from the pro shop? If members get protective against that, they are there for the wrong reasons.

[Tim Leahy]

There are some great clubs out there, such as Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Sand Hills, Seminole, etc, you get the point.  Many people I talk to do not get any oppurtunity to play any of these very high-end, private courses.

I have found that many private courses allow charitable tournaments several times a year and if your willing to pay the entry fee, usually high but a tax write off and you get some goodies, you can get access that way. If you call the pro shop at the beginning of the year they can tell you what and when tournaments are scheduled.

[Peter_Herreid]

I want to put in another nod to the charity tournaments held at some of the courses which might otherwise be inaccessible to outside/non-member play.

There is no denying that there are sometimes considerable costs involved in such events, but these are often wonderful charities who depend on these events for much of their fundraising/public awareness during the year.

Either I or close friends have played the following courses during the past 24 months in just such a fashion:  Winged Foot, Sahalee, Shoreacres, Plainfield, The Creek, Piping Rock, Myopia Hunt, Olympic-Lake and Oakmont.  Another alternatives might be GCA-sponsored outings, which have taken place at similarly top-notch clubs such as Baltusrol and Hidden Creek, to name a few.

For some with lots of disposable income, the costs of these rounds might be similar to that year's new driver, putter and fairway wood combined.  For others, it might require more savings and personal sacrifice, or travel from a remote location, such as the Pacific Northwest.

It all depends on how much one wants, or to what lengths one will go, to indulge one's hobby/passion/obsession.

As with many things in life, it is always possible that some doors may be opened for you, but other doors might need some more active participation to be opened.

I can only comment on personal experience, but here is one example.  There is a Special Olympics event at Myopia Hunt Club each October, at a very reasonable price for a charitable function.  Sure it may be on a weekday, and the weather might be marginal on a given date, but it is a terrific opportunity to support a wonderful cause, and have access to a club that most of us would never dream to be able to visit.  The event has not filled either of the last two years.  Every student of GCA thus has the oppportunity to study this course first-hand, not through readings or someone else's photos.

Do you want to visit a course only on the weekend, or at an inexpensive guest fee?  Such charity events are not for you.  I would hazard to say that all but a handful of clubs in the US are indeed accessible to anyone who wishes to put their money where their mouth or heart is.  The club itself is typically quite helpful in letting one know if or when these events will be...

[Tom_Doak]

Several of the private clubs we've been involved in lately have agreed in the permitting phase to host one or two events a year for local charities or environmental causes, in order to grease the wheels of the permitting process.

Twenty years ago, the professionals of several VERY exclusive clubs told me that after their big "season" was over, no one cared if there was an occasional late-evening round by a nonmember.  They're much stricter now, of course.  Also, the caddie masters of some such clubs make a lot of money on the side by approving the occasional guest round themselves, when it's not too busy.

[Pete Lavallee]

Good point Tom. For many years La Jolla CC used to let non-members tee it up on Xmas day. They were getting over 300 players when their insurance company told them to put a stop to the practice or have their policy cancelled.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jordan,

I'm a member of a private club which is one of a handful of really well-designed courses in the city. As a consequence of having a very small golfing membership (approx. 225) who are unwilling to pay higher dues, our course can be accessed by the public if they make a formal request to the club management. They are charged a higher green fee (+50%), and can only play when the tee sheet is free (which is often). I haven't heard any complaints, but I also know the public do not take advantage of this option because much cheaper golf can be had elsewhere in the city, and obviously, we are no Pine Valley. While I am opposed to non-members disrupting the play of the membership, I am thankful that they are helping keep my annual dues stable.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Jordan,

Here in Canada, things operate in a similar fashion to Australia, in that access is likely possible if your timing is good and you are a member in good standing at another private facility. However, no times are designated for outside play. Your head professional will call to try and arrange a tee time for you, and the success of your request is left to the discretion of the private club you are trying to access (no formal policy).

TK

[Dan King]

We should force course to be open to the public every so often.

While we are at it we should force doctors to work for free, dentists to stop insisting on pay, there's nice little stereo at Sharper Image I'd rather not have to pay for and I'm also sick and tired of having to pay to get on the Internet. The little bakery down the street should give away free carrot cake.

Just because it didn't work in Russia doesn't mean it can't work here.

Dan King

No member of our generation who wasn't a Communist or a dropout in the thirties is worth a damn.
Lyndon B. Johnson

[Tyler Kearns]

Dan,

I don't think anybody is advocating FREE golf.

TK

[Dan King]

Tyler Kearns writes:
I don't think anybody is advocating FREE golf.

Why not? If you are going to force people do to what you want with private property, why not make it free? If you are going to force the bakery to make carrot cake for me, given a choice, I want it for free.

Dan King

Communism has nothing to do with love. Communism is an excellent hammer which we use to destroy our enemy.
 --Mao Tse-tung

[Voytek Wilczak]

I think that limited public play at America's most exclusive private courses with profits going to charity is a great idea.

Perhaps the Feds would even waive the dreaded "public accomodation" BS for that cause.

The clubs could charge what they want. Seems to me that for several grand/round at ANGC (for example) they would find quite a few takers. All proceeds would go to charity of the club's choice. The members would give up a week of play in hot weather, which they don't use, anyway.

Great PR, too.

It's up to the clubs, though, to figure out that it would be a great way to raise money for the needy AND get good PR.

[Rob_Waldron]

In an effort to raise additional revenue there has been a trend recently whereby some of the "Top 100" courses make 1 or 2 tee times per available for unaccompanied guests. In some cases the guests must be sponsored by members in others the Golf Professional may extend the privilege to members from clubs outside the area. In both cases the Club generally charges a premium rate. Since the guests are technically sponsored by member or the Pro they are considered to be "screened" prior to approval.

The concept of opening a course for a week of outside play is simply not practical or logical. Members generally pay a premium in return for exclusivity. Very few of the most prestigious clubs permit outings for just this reason. If they do have outings it is typically in the name of a charity and comes with a significant price tag.

Actually if you really think about it courses like PV do permit a large amount of non member play since most foursomes consist of a member and three guests!