[Doug Braunsdorf]

In watching tonight's Mercedes Championships, I have noticed how firm the greens are.  Is this simply due to the current weather (wind) or is this due to the greens being newly planted?  

Several players, notably Sergio on #5, had approaches hit the green, bounce, and release through the green.  

This is only one example.  In short, it isn't the weekly game of shooting darts that we normally see, and is quite refreshing.

It appears, to my eyes, that some of these players are not playing the holes properly.  I notice may players who are playing away from hole locations come out better than players who play at the hole.  Again, I qualify this as what I see on TV.  I haven't been here, to play or watch.  I may be wrong.  

Appleby hit a beautiful half-shot to one of the holes on the second nine, and it took the slope perfectly, rolling toward the hole after landing and checking.  

My questions are then, as follows:

1) in playing a hole like #5, is it possible to aim about 10 yards left of the front of the green and have the shot roll on?  In these firm conditions, it would appear (from the TV, of course) that it might be a good play.   I'm not there, in person, so it's harder to say.  For those of us here that HAVE  played it, or have seen it IN PERSON, what do you think?  

2) there is abundant commentary on how the greens are newly planted with a new strain of grass.  Is there an optimal time in which greens need to mature before play?  How is this determined?  

[Jordan Wall]

:

1) in playing a hole like #5, is it possible to aim about 10 yards left of the front of the green and have the shot roll on?  In these firm conditions, it would appear (from the TV, of course) that it might be a good play.   I'm not there, in person, so it's harder to say.  For those of us here that HAVE  played it, or have seen it IN PERSON, what do you think?  

2) there is abundant commentary on how the greens are newly planted with a new strain of grass.  Is there an optimal time in which greens need to mature before play?  How is this determined?  

I played the course a couple weeks after renovation.  The greens were very fast, and very difficult.  To answer your question about #5, I guess it would be possible, but consider this...

-going downwind and hitting a high cut from a downslope is not very easy

-IF you could land it and let it roll it would be all luck from there because there is a very good chance a ball from 230-plus yards out will have lot's of momentum and roll into a bunker (theyre DEEP)...a 7 yard downwind bunker shot 10 feet uphill is not easy

-I guess there is supposed to be mud on a few of the golf balls so it would be hard to be precise enough to land it perfect, and anything not perfect has a chance of bogey or worse, and Vijay's went OB.

Kapalua is playing so tough right now.  I think it's like a US Open (see my other thread), and sometimes it's not how the players play, it's that they cant do anything about what happens with the wind and stuff.  These guys cant count on a gust of wind that probably wont happen, if you know what I mean, and sometimes the wind will die down for a second and they cant depend on that either.  When balls are rolling off greens, and putts are rolling 15 feet pass the cup, it begans to get a bit ridiculous and all you can do is sit and watch.

Plus there is 45 MPH winds and even Fred Funk missed a couple fairways (even one 90 yards wide)

[rjsimper]

Has Kapalua screwed the proverbial pooch by replacing the greens - with winds as they are, have they given away the element of playability and dare I say fairness in the name of showing "pga tour quality greens" to the world every January?

[Jordan Wall]

Ryan-

I dont know what they used to be like before the renovation, but these greens mess with your head.  The C&C renovation was supposed to make the course easier for resort guests, but man, I find it hard to believe.  When I played there I counted four putts that rolled off greens.  These greens are not like regular greens, with the ocean, grain, and setting sun making a difference on where a ball rolls.  These greens were PGA Tour quality before the renovation, and now they are US Open, PGA quality, as shown by the pros.

When I played the winds picked up in Afternoon and that made the greens faster then they alreadfy were...hoofta I played a chip for eagle on eighteen I thought would be 25 feet short, just to see it roll to a couple inches.  No complaints, but they are really fast!!!

[Jason Blasberg]

Has Kapalua screwed the proverbial pooch by replacing the greens - with winds as they are, have they given away the element of playability and dare I say fairness in the name of showing "pga tour quality greens" to the world every January?

Ryan, after playing the old greens I'd have to say no.  They were by far the worst surfaces in relation to the quality of the rest of the course that I've played.  Up hill into the grain putts rolled at about a 4.  It was actually very frustrating to putt the old surfaces b/c they were ridiculously slow and very grainey.  It's such an awesome experience and the greens have so much interest it was definitely a let down they way they used to putt.  Granted I was only there for a week in 2002 and they were at "resort" height but I remember being in love with the layout and loathing the surfaces.  

For the record, I hate Bermuda greens, period, I'm still missing four footers in my head on the RTJ Trail 8 years later .  . . .

           

[Joe Hancock]

Not in line with the original post, but what I'm watching today is definitely fast conditions, but not as firm as what I was expecting.

After quite a few comments of what the conditions are in Hawaii, I was expecting some sort of dry, really fast conditioning. But, the vibrant green suggests a turf that is very short and fast, but not really dry. Every shot I've seen into the greens have no trouble stopping.

Having said that, i'm sure it's very fun to play and I would have no qualms with the conditioning.

Joe

[rjsimper]

Has Kapalua screwed the proverbial pooch by replacing the greens - with winds as they are, have they given away the element of playability and dare I say fairness in the name of showing "pga tour quality greens" to the world every January?

Ryan, after playing the old greens I'd have to say no.  They were by far the worst surfaces in relation to the quality of the rest of the course that I've played.  Up hill into the grain putts rolled at about a 4.  It was actually very frustrating to putt the old surfaces b/c they were ridiculously slow and very grainey.  It's such an awesome experience and the greens have so much interest it was definitely a let down they way they used to putt.  Granted I was only there for a week in 2002 and they were at "resort" height but I remember being in love with the layout and loathing the surfaces.  

For the record, I hate Bermuda greens, period, I'm still missing four footers in my head on the RTJ Trail 8 years later .  . . .

           

Good to hear - do you think, based on what you saw, that the pros were right to voice their concerns about the old greens - do you think, based on what we are seeing on TV, that some of the pros will regret their complaints?  It's odd to me to see what happened on the fifth hole yesterday and yet not hear anyone complain about it in their post-round interview - hell, Sergio, who may have gotten screwed more than anyone, looked like he was too busy spotting a dashing vixen off camera to complain about something being unfair.

How was the 5th hole yesterday much different than Shinnecock?  

It just seems so out of character for the tour pros to be running balls way by, chipping off of greens, struggling to break par, and yet everything is characterized as "universal praise" for the new greens.

I'm eager to play it - that's for sure...I just hope that what I'm seeing is more a result of the desire to make them challenging for the pros than it is a result of the new greens and their approach to conditioning.  

They can't blame the sunny windy weather like Shinnie could partially point at...that's for sure.  

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