Willie Park, Jr. renovations

[Pete Lavallee]

Willie,

It is my understanding that the original 9 holes at CC of New Bedford are by Willie Park. The 6 holes across the road are Ross as well as the 2 holes that play alondside Hathaway Road and the volcano par 3 at the bottom of the hill. I believe that Mark Mungeam was responsible for the recent restoration.  

[ET]

Thanks for replys.

[Ian Andrew]

Jim,

In our studies of Park we have seen that his greens and green surround designs may exceed the designs of other great "Golden Age" guys.  The courses we are working on are typically shorter but that does not make them easier because his greens are pure genius.  Large swells, rolls, ridges, humps and subtle slopes that you swear are going this way but are in fact going that way.  I liken some of them to the work of Travis at Scranton.  

Jim you've facinated me with this part of your post.

Please find a way to post some examples of those greens. Out of the six canadian courses that I have seen or worked with, swells rolls and ridges are not a dominant feature. Almost all the greens have great pitch and the typical fill pad surroundings.

The bunkering has a huge variety from wild (Islesmere) to simple. Do you have any original photos from these clubs, similar to the excellent set found at Olympia Fields ? I would like to see some ground photos for some more elaborate bunkering.

Tom MacWood and I have both posted the old photos of Royal Montreal, again there are pitched greens with interesting but fairly open form bunkers.

Jim, it's always fun to see something that opens your eyes. It sounds like the courses you are working with offer some additional insight to his work. If you could add some additional commentary, a few photos or an email to me. I would appreciate your insight.

Ian

[Jeff Goldman]

Ian,

What "excellent set" of Willie Park bunker photos from Olympia Fields have you seen?  Just wondering in case you have seen some stuff either we don't have or I haven't seen.  I have a few excellent low level aerial shots, especially of the wild pentagonal bunker with the big turf island in the first fairway of the (now) North Course, and the catcher's mitt bunkers on 3, but otherwise there isn't that much around with good views.  So far, I have lots better stuff of the bunkering on the 1st (now South) and defunct 3rd course, mostly from the early 1920s.  Willie Park was engaged as a consultant on those courses while he was designing the North course, so I have no idea whether any of these are his bunkers, rather than Bendelow's, Willie Watson's, or, most likely, Jack Daray's.

Jeff Goldman

[Tyler Kearns]

Ian,

Our own Willie Park Jr. course in Winnipeg, MB - Southwood, has green contours, that while not a complex or pronounced as Jim described are more interesting than a single basic pitch. Much work has been done to the course over the years, with Stanley Thompson renovating 5 greens shortly after the original design was complete, and 4 green were altered much more recently (2 of which stand out for all the wrong reasons). We've done a lot of work there over the years, but it has mostly been confined to drainage and bunker renovation. The greens are really excellent, and always make for an enjoyable round.

TK

[kwl]

ray hearn recently revised red run golf club in royal oak, MI

[Robert Thompson]

Tyler: I had no idea there was a Park course in Winnipeg. Strange mix of golf in that city -- Mackenzie/Ross, more Ross and now a Park. Of course wasn't there once a Thompson course there that held a Canadian Open and was then entirely redone?  

[Tyler Kearns]

Of course wasn't there once a Thompson course there that held a Canadian Open and was then entirely redone?  

Robert,

Actually, Winnipeg "had" two Thompson courses. Ian is currently overseeing a bunker renovation at Niakwa (venue for 1951 Canadian Open), which has been altered quite a bit over the years. However, I think the original skeleton is moderately intact, as are a majority of the greens. I believe the clubhouse has been rebuilt twice, both times necessitating the removal of one golf hole, and two short holes have been inserted into the layout. Further, a few large ponds replaced trees in an effort to help drain the property, lending an obviously modern look to a classical design.

The other is Glendale, my home course. The club was entirely rebuilt in 1987 after selling off some prime real estate to retire some outstanding debt and modernize the golf course!! Currently nine Thompson greens remain, and they seem to sit on the landscape much more naturally than the rest. I'm trying to encourage the restoration of a short par-3 along the river (19th hole) which was allowed to grow over five years ago, and Ian can attest, a real challenging and beautiful 120 yard one-shotter. A great case against increased distance.

If your ever in town, please let me know and I'll show you around.

TK

[Willie_Dow]

Thanks Pete

Just opened my copy of Cornish/Whitten and see that WPjr also did the original 9 at Fall River CC.

Wayne Morrison and I walked NBCC last month, and it looked to me like one thru six, seven and twelve were Park holes.  Could a short thirteen, with a dogleg left to a green near the clubhouse be Park's ninth ?

There is a notable difference in the Ross designed holes.  Nowhere near as good as Willie's work.  Haven't played there since Mungeam's work, hard to get on NBCC during summer.

[Pete Lavallee]

Willie,

You seem to have the Park holes pegged; indeed his holes are far supeior to the Ross holes, although the Park holes do cover more interseting terrain. I hope to get a look at Mark's work next summer.

Very interested to hear that Willie Park Jr. is also reponsible for the original nine at Fall River CC. Although glacial activity certainly had a hand in shaping those holes, the original nine holes there are fantastic; the short par 4 that plays over the glacial kettle to a punchbowl green really stands out in my mind 30 years after last playing there. Greenkeeper George LaHeure (sp?) was reponsible for building the newer nine back in the 1970's.

[Willie_Dow]

Pete:

Have you ever seen "The History of Fall River Country Club" ?

I had some correspondence with J.W.L. Adams, Oxon, England some years ago.  We pretty well established evidence that the Grand Golf Tournament by Professional Players had a pose by Wm Dow which was almost identical to the pose in the FORWARD, at the Somerset Junction Station, on the Old Colony Line, which was adjacent to the FRGC in 1900.  

The golf club house was destroyed by fire in 1909.  Jack Howard, the green-keeper, Willie Dow, the club's professional, and the club's servants were able to get most of the furnishings and club trophies out safely.  

Adams, and the History, gave A.H. Fenn credit for the first course in  1900.  The 2nd course layout was made sometime after 1910, and credit was given to Tom Winton, who came to America from Montrose Scotland to work for Willie Park, Jr.

Don't know the background for the Cornish/Whitten documents.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

Sorry, "set" was a bad choice of words.

I have seen the same photos as you have mentioned. They came from the Olympia Fields, when I was first working with Weston, and trying to find information on Park. Are they still on your web site ?

Ian

[Jeff Goldman]

Ian,

I don't think the historical pictures of the North Course are on the website any more.  I've been piling through our historical stuff, and we have more pics of the other courses, especially the greens.  This winter we're trying to do some cataloging and get a handle on what we have on each course.  Some of the best pics may be from the program for the 1928 Open which I have on cd, along with some club magazines from the 1920s.

Jeff

[Kyle Harris]

Some pictures illustrating Park greens with rolls and humps and what not. Also note the dramatic push up nature of the greens.

There are some more pictures under the PSU White MHC.

The 6th Green: Entire green slopes from back right to front left, with a dramatic tier on the back right quarter of the green. The original green has shrunk and should be expanded to the edges of the build up around the back, and to the bunkers. In addition, another 10 feet of the front of the green should be restored. Behind the outhouse is the 14th green pad. Use the height of the outhouse as a relative point to see just how much the back of 14 drops off! This green was originally for a long downhil par 3 of about 200 yards.


The 14th green from just behind the outhouse in the previous picture. Not the rolls and contours in the green that falls away from the tee at the top of the hill. Another example of a shrunk green, as the original stretched to the bunkers and another twenty feet or so in front of the present line.


The tenth green, another one dramatically shrunk (should extend to the back edge of the build up, to the bunkers and also should have a false front: as much as 5 yards has been lost to fairway). This green has the most internal contour on the course and features several different tiers and swales to put a hole.

[archie_struthers]

 

Thanks to all who are trying to help my friend ET on Park revisionists.

We are close to finalizing some decisions on Greate Bay and I have been wrestling with many issues relative to a re-do. Some history:

Ocean City-Somers Point Golf Club 1923  Willie Park, Jr.

renovated by George Fazio 1972-73

changes by Ron Garl    1985-86  

tinkering by Struthers 1998-present.  


There is a good chance we will be relocating the clubhouse and re-routing the course, and although there is a greate deal of Park left, we must re-create a greate deal, and buil or re-create some old holes. Some are lost forever, but his defense of par with the use of false fronts is inspirational. and way cool!!!!  I'm working on the project, and soliciting ideas/help. Stay tuned.

Thanks

rjs

[Willie_Dow]

ET & Archie:

I'v been reading Chapter X, "Laying out and keeping golf-links" in "The Game of Golf" by W.Park.Junr.  It is an old one,a hand me down by my grandfather, which he bought in 1902 for $2.

A few of his comments:  "The tees should be placed on level parts of the course, with, if anything, a slight slope upwards in the direction to be played."  "The selection of the putting-greens is a much more difficult matter.  The variety of places on which they can be formed is infinite.  They may be on the level course, or in a natural hollow or basin, provided it be sufficiently large and shallow, or they may be placed on the tops of large 'tables'.  All of these are good positions and the more variety that can be introduced the better.  The putting greens should be as large as possible; and while the ground should be comparatively level, it is not desireable that it should be perfectly flat like a billiard-table, but should rather be of a slightly undulating character."  "With regard to hazards, I would begin by stating that there should not be any hazard out of which the ball cannot be extricated at the loss of one stroke, and that all hazards should be visible to the golfer when he stands at his ball before playing his stroke.  A bunker that is not visible to the player is always more or less of a 'trap.'

Maybe this is where we started calling bunkers "traps" !!

Willie  

[TEPaul]

Ian Andrews:

Regarding your post #27 and similarities on rolls and contours on Park and Travis greens just go check out a few of the greens at Glen Ridge, or a few at Mt Bruno. They are very similar to some such as Scranton's #10 or #14. If you looked at any of those greens in a vacuum I'll bet even you could not tell which architect they are. The impressive thing about those types of greens from both architects is that even if some of them may be a tad intense with some of the green speeds we run today they are not at all "choppy" or nonsensical in play. They still work very well. Of course I'm not their superintendents counting pinnability but they all seem to work great to me.  

I probably shouldn't even mention it because I doubt there's any way I'd ever be able to document or remotely prove it but I really am beginning to wonder if maybe Travis didn't have a bit more influence then anyone has ever realized on Crump and some of his original PV greens. If he did it would probably have been that time he spent so much time over his pitch to Crump to make the golf course reversible. And of course we do have those hole by hole PV drawings by Travis even if the greens are pretty amorphous on them. Of course Travis never mentioned anything like that (nor apparently did anyone else) and he sure was a writer.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom - Those greens at Mt Bruno were super reads, and fun to work against those who knew the break.

I see item 1344 in Peter Yagi's golf books listed Willie Park's "The Game of Golf" at $265.  Good stuff on links design.